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10:24:02","會議時間":"2025-11-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n\n邀請環境部部長就「聯合國第30屆氣候峰會之後台灣氣候治理方向與如何提升台灣『氣候變遷績效指標』名次，落實2050淨零排放路徑策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n【業務報告及專題報告綜合詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":8.957843750000002,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"呂副司長雅雯","start":9.059093750000002,"end":10.290968750000001,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":13.176593750000002,"end":13.88534375,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":13.88534375,"end":14.070968750000002,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.62784375,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":14.62784375,"end":14.67846875,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":14.67846875,"end":16.14659375,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":16.14659375,"end":20.21346875,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":20.28096875,"end":25.20846875,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":22.71096875,"end":23.57159375,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":25.76534375,"end":27.874718750000003,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":28.38096875,"end":43.56846875,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":44.47971875,"end":57.89534375,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":58.570343750000006,"end":59.447843750000004,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":59.48159375,"end":59.49846875,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":59.49846875,"end":60.274718750000005,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":60.257843750000006,"end":68.37471875,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":68.76284375,"end":113.29596875,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":113.38034375000001,"end":113.39721875000001,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":113.39721875000001,"end":123.37034375,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":123.37034375,"end":128.02784375000002,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":128.02784375000002,"end":128.17971875,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":128.17971875,"end":129.22596875000002,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":128.83784375000002,"end":133.64721875,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":133.68096875,"end":134.23784375,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":134.23784375,"end":139.97534375,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":140.80221875,"end":141.69659375,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":141.20721875,"end":141.98346875000001,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":141.73034375,"end":141.76409375,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":141.91596875000002,"end":151.02846875,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":151.48409375,"end":156.93471875,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":155.70284375,"end":160.76534375,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":161.35596875000002,"end":168.05534375000002,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":163.48221875000002,"end":163.66784375,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":164.35971875,"end":164.66346875000002,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":168.30846875,"end":173.10096875000002,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":172.40909375,"end":183.73221875000002,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":183.73221875000002,"end":193.03034375000001,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":192.38909375,"end":200.37096875,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":200.77596875,"end":210.46221875,"speaker_score":0.861},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":203.12159375000002,"end":204.65721875000003,"speaker_score":0.879},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":210.76596875,"end":214.20846875,"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一樣請彭部長有請彭部長委員好 部長還好啦坐四十幾個小時飛機啦可能被傳染 有點感冒資訊沒問題嗎沒有問題 備訓沒問題"},{"start":25.836,"end":42.225,"text":"那我請問一下這個部長剛剛還是一樣就是CCPI的問題那排名台灣排名是59名屬於全球性這個非常差的等級那這是評比用的是2023年跟2024年的排放營能源結構那"},{"start":44.557,"end":56.912,"text":"前两年 那两年我们的核能还在运转再生能源也比前一年多一点也就是说就算有核电撑着再生能源勉强前进一点点我们依然只有59名"},{"start":58.615,"end":77.154,"text":"部長沒錯吧對 沒錯對啊 我們2023年2024年有八成都是靠這個石化燃料主要跟燃氣跟燃煤那到現在是現在有時候是火力全開火力發電全開那CCPI給台灣的評分理會很清楚天然氣被過度包裝成乾淨的能源"},{"start":77.774,"end":92.668,"text":"那能源結構沒有朝1.5度C的路徑前進這個減排速度太慢再生能源進度落後 風電延宕那2025年核電正式退出火力必須補上"},{"start":94.309,"end":112.236,"text":"那包含燃氣燃煤通通要往上拉這是你們政府的能源你們現在的能源規劃那部長我現在請問你一句非常簡單的問題那有核電的時候我們都是排到59名那明年在廢核火力全開的情況之下你認為CCPI的排名會進步嗎還是會退步"},{"start":113.576,"end":139.627,"text":"包委員因為CCPI它的評比有定向又有定性也就是說把很多的東西攪在一起所以基本上它的這個分數評比明智怎麼算出來就有很大的爭議那另外一個是你們是 你當然啦你是認為說它用人均排放不合理嘛對不對因為委員你講到核能像韓國它排在我們後面它的核能也佔了快要20%那我再問你那我現在意思就是說我們在未來這個部分有機會上升嗎"},{"start":141.271,"end":167.39,"text":"你有信心嗎我認為委員這個它並不是一個我說我等於是有人願意做這個評比我們都歡迎但是它如果是一個很有規模很有公信力它評比很正常的機構因為我只看到你在質疑就是說它用人均這個人均排放來評比不太公平那其他的你們表示說你們是默認還是怎麼樣"},{"start":168.602,"end":183.529,"text":"基本上這個就是一個NGO提出一些建議一些報告而已因為台灣把燃氣包裝成這個潔淨橋樑的燃料把天然氣宣傳成乾淨的過渡能源這是誤導性的做法嘛等於是直接打臉我們政府民進黨政府的能源政策"},{"start":184.169,"end":200.234,"text":"報告委員因為他有些專家會這樣認為但是國際上對於天然氣的排碳量還有它的污染的確都比較低所以我們現在選擇的就是說講我們好的那種專家我們才是比較認為他是專家那這種的專家就不是專家了"},{"start":201.314,"end":227.512,"text":"就是不一樣的看法嘛但是整個國際上像我舉例 例如說新加坡沒有在裡面新加坡的這個燃氣大概占了95%所以基本上因為每個國家的地點條件因為全球暖化問題當然不會只有看這個碳排大國際研究早就說明天然氣只要2.7%因為甲烷的洩漏就比藍莓更髒 更暖化那甲烷的暖化威力是二氧化碳的86倍"},{"start":229.093,"end":247.752,"text":"那液化天然氣從開採壓縮液化運輸載到氣化每一段都會洩漏啊所以不管是IPCC這個1.5C的模型全球這個減排路徑全部都把甲烷算進去風險這部分你們可能不知道啊"},{"start":248.753,"end":270.528,"text":"那個甲烷我們是我們台灣不是甲烷的出口這個進口我們是使用國那開採造成的碳排是屬於那個國家他造成的物質造業但是有需求就有開採他自己就要算算在他自己的那我們是算說這個甲烷它本身的排量量多少所以他這樣的這個說法有一點跟實際上的減碳的這個算法是不大一樣的"},{"start":270.788,"end":296.603,"text":"那我再問一下就是說在這個淨零碳排的議題上我們環境部應該是要主導的嘛怎麼感覺我們都是配合經濟部沒有啊我們其實這個都是整個減碳的報告是經濟部是負責能源的部分那我們是負責整個匯整各個部會因為這個部分會不會影響環境我覺得你們要更清楚一點這是你們的業務嘛不要被經濟部牽著走不要被經濟部牽著走"},{"start":298.935,"end":318.041,"text":"沒有啊 這個我們都是彼此在公平公正的在討論這個事情那風電 因為光風電帶給我們人的影響之間我不認為再生能源成長率會有多少這個機會提升那我們未來有沒有能力降低這個燃氣的發電量還是只能往上衝"},{"start":318.883,"end":343.911,"text":"基本上燃氣現在規劃到2030 2035大概都不會超過50都40幾%那希望再生能源能夠順利能夠拉起來所以我們的確在國家的NDC3.0裡面就有制定一些能源的一個結構所以其實再生能源最多大概就到50%左右那希望燃煤可以降到大概20%以上好啦部長你再看 你再注意這個議題啦好不好不要被又被排到最後一名去了"},{"start":344.571,"end":358.985,"text":"不會不會不會這個我再請教一下光除暗場要不要做環評光除暗場目前是應該是不用吧因為他是屬於在這個一些的設施者下面"},{"start":360.081,"end":388.9,"text":"不一定喔 有些是在社區旁邊跟委員報告 目前我們的環評相關法規裡面並沒有針對儲能設施去要求說要辦理環評因為儲能設施因為我看到就是說很多地方都在反對啦我都在反對這個問題也不是說今天才發生的一直以來這幾年我們陸陸續續看到民眾在抗爭那有些抗爭強一點的他就停下來的沒有抗爭的就繼續做所以我覺得這個部分你們有沒有想過要有一個規範"},{"start":390.802,"end":402.287,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前有收到有一些民眾會有一些擔憂跟疑慮那在我們修訂環評的認定標準的時候我們可以一起來把它做一個討論然後再看是不是把它納入我們的現在規定"},{"start":404.187,"end":423.175,"text":"居民不了解嘛我不敢說他一定會影響旁邊但是我認為這個場地的使用應該要有一個規範出來讓業者或者民眾也比較懂這個要不然他隨時要設那民眾就恐慌而且他沒有經過環評也沒有說明會沒有說明沒有經過環評就沒有說明會沒有說明會"},{"start":425.892,"end":445.658,"text":"這個老百姓就會不懂不懂的話如果有人講什麼他們當然就會擔心因為這個部分因為離電池在旁邊第一會不會造成身體的影響第二會不會造成這個有風險就是萬一失火我們消防的設施的規範是怎麼樣這些都是要納入考量的"},{"start":448.212,"end":474.104,"text":"這個我們會來討論那其實委員這個有一些再生能源或是新型態的或許是需要大家多一點了解不是說每一個都對我有害不然的話我們現在電動車也是一堆鋰電池在街上跑那是不是會有害所以基本上這個社會的溝通認知這個不一樣啦車子當然你汽油也會爆炸你不能這樣講啦 對不對所以你不能把這個鋰電池把它裝成這個跟除冷廠我這是兩件事"},{"start":475.224,"end":490.28,"text":"這是兩件事情 不要把它混為一堂那問題這個是固定的如果它有危險它是固定的在我住的旁邊是長期在那裡的車子我有開才有上路才會有比較危險啊對不對 你不能這樣比較啊對不對"},{"start":492.216,"end":519.309,"text":"然後我們是希望你們把這個東西規範寫出來讓業者也好讓我們的老百姓也好都能夠比較清楚那最後一個就是光電三法三讀後我看到很多光電業者跑去經濟部抗議他們說環評門檻提高會拖慢開發增加成本所以我現在要問的是環境部自己的立場這個光電環評加嚴經濟部本來就不樂見那你們之前態度也一直"},{"start":520.109,"end":535.912,"text":"不是要寫死要先觀察慢慢研議那現在已經我們國民黨民眾黨已經把環評的範圍寫進母法裡面你們反而不用去當壞人照理講環境部應該鬆一口氣那現在越來越反彈環境部的態度是什麼"},{"start":537.558,"end":559.251,"text":"其實我們都有規劃在我們的執法裡面要訂而且我們的執法如果一公告然後就要來做公聽本來就是這兩個月要做的事情那我記得黃國昌委員在大院質詢我說他要修改的時候他說那個數額可以來討論可是我覺得這一次修改因為上個禮拜我剛好在國外不好意思沒有參與到但是我是認為是在這個到底多少的量"},{"start":559.898,"end":578.824,"text":"要環評的部分的話沒有經過一個科學的討論就直接表決就過了我覺得這是我比較遺憾的地方那個可以討論那你會當這個環境永續的守門人嗎我們當然是守門人阿你不要遇到壓力等下要開後門給人家走了喔不會不會 因為那個法已經在母法在那邊我們要"},{"start":579.625,"end":593.326,"text":"環境部要改也是很困難我們也只能遵照大院的一個指示但是守護環境能夠不要破壞環境的一個情況下讓公眾能夠多了解什麼是環評然後多少要環評衝擊是什麼這個也是很重要的好 謝謝部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:12.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:13.019000+08:00","text":"主席好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:13.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:13.639000+08:00","text":"一樣請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:13.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:14.380000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:14.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:14.440000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:14.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:14.680000+08:00","text":"部長還好吧？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:15.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:15.600000+08:00","text":"坐四十幾個小時飛機，可能被傳染，有一點感冒。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:15.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:15.860000+08:00","text":"質詢備詢沒問題吧？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:15.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:16.080000+08:00","text":"沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:31.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:36.759000+08:00","text":"我請問一下部長，還是一樣CCPI的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:37.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:48.205000+08:00","text":"臺灣排名是59名，屬於全球性非常差的等級，這次評比用的是2023年跟2024年的排放與能源結構。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:14:50.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:15:05.096000+08:00","text":"前兩年，我覺得我們的核能還在運轉，再生能源也比前一年度多一點，也就是說就算有核電撐著，再生能源勉強前進一點點，我們依然只有59名，部長，沒錯吧？","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:15:05.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:15:06.457000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:15:06.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:15:35.405000+08:00","text":"對啊，我們2023年2024年有八成都是靠石化燃料，主要是燃氣跟燃煤，現在有時候是火力發電全開，CCPI給臺灣的評分理由很清楚，天然氣被過度包裝成乾淨的能源，能源結構沒有朝1.5度C的路徑前進，減排速度太慢，再生能源進度落後，風電延宕。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:15:36.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:15:46.911000+08:00","text":"2025年核電正式退出，火力必須補上，包含燃氣、燃煤通通要往上拉，這是你們現在的能源規劃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:15:47.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:15:58.216000+08:00","text":"部長，我請問你一個非常簡單的問題，有核電的時候，我們是排到59名，明年在廢核火力全開的情況之下，你認為CCPI的排名會進步，還是會退步？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:15:59.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:09.980000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為CCPI評比有定向又有定性，也就是說把很多的東西攪在一起，所以基本上它的分數評比、名次怎麼算出來就有很大的爭議，那另外一個是……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:11.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:15.002000+08:00","text":"當然你是認為它用人均排放不合理，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:15.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:20.345000+08:00","text":"對，委員你講到核能，像韓國排在我們後面，他的核能也占了快要20%。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:20.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:25.627000+08:00","text":"我再問你，我現在意思就是說我們未來這個部分有機會上升嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:27.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:27.992000+08:00","text":"你有信心嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:27.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:41.482000+08:00","text":"委員，我認為它並不是一個……等於是有人願意做這個評比，我們都歡迎，但它如果是一個很有規模、很有公信力、評比很正常的機構，我們都尊重。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:41.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:49.968000+08:00","text":"因為我看到你在質疑他用人均排放來評比，不太公平。對。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:50.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:53.390000+08:00","text":"其他的，表示你們是默認還是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:54.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:16:58.444000+08:00","text":"基本上這個就是NGO提出一些建議、一些報告而已，並不是……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:16:58.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:17:09.509000+08:00","text":"因為臺灣把燃氣包裝成潔淨橋梁的燃料，把天然氣宣傳成乾淨的過渡能源，這是誤導性的作法嘛，等於是直接打臉我們民進黨政府的能源政策。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:17:10.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:17:17.951000+08:00","text":"報告委員，有些專家會這樣認為，但是國際上對於天然氣的排碳量，還有它的污染，的確都比較低。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:17:18.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:17:26.214000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在選擇的就是，講我們好的那種專家，我們才比較認為他是專家，那這種的專家就不是專家了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:17:27.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:17:29.136000+08:00","text":"就是不一樣的看法，但是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:17:29.136000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-24T10:17:30.757000+08:00","text":"所以我們要聽誰的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:17:30.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:17:39.483000+08:00","text":"像我舉例，例如新加坡沒有在裡面，新加坡的燃氣大概占了95%，所以基本上，因為每個國家的地理條件不一樣。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:17:39.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:18:13.732000+08:00","text":"因為全球暖化問題，當然不會只有看這個碳排，國際研究早就說明天然氣只要2.7%，因為甲烷的洩漏就比燃煤更髒、更暖化，甲烷的暖化威力是二氧化碳的86倍，液化天然氣從開採、壓縮液化、運輸再到氣化，每一段都都會洩漏，所以不管是IPCC 1.5度C的模型，全球減排路徑全部都把甲烷算入風險，這部分你們不可能不知道啊。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:18:15.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:18:18.535000+08:00","text":"不是，委員，我們臺灣不是甲烷的進口國……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:18:18.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:18:21.037000+08:00","text":"我們是使用國。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:18:21.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:18:23.959000+08:00","text":"我們是使用國，開採造成的碳排是屬於那個國家造成的問題。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:18:24.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:18:25.500000+08:00","text":"但是有需求就有開採，不是嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:18:25.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:18:36.508000+08:00","text":"他自己就要算他自己的，我們是算這個甲烷本身的排量多少，所以他這樣的說法有一點跟實際上的減碳算法不大一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:18:36.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:18:44.933000+08:00","text":"我再問一下，在淨零碳排的議題上，你們環境部應該是要主導的，怎麼感覺你們都是配合經濟部？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:18:46.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:18:54.418000+08:00","text":"沒有，整個減碳的報告，經濟部是負責能源的部分，我們是負責彙整各個部會。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:18:54.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:02.583000+08:00","text":"因為這個部分會不會影響環境，我覺得你們要更清楚一點，這是你們的業務，不要被經濟部牽著走。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:04.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:08.796000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們都是彼此公平公正地討論這個事情。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:10.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:24.041000+08:00","text":"風電部分，因為光是風電帶給我們的影響，我不認為再生能源成長率會有多少機會提升，我們未來有沒有能力降低燃氣的發電量，還是只能往上衝？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:24.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:33.526000+08:00","text":"基本上，燃氣現在規劃到2030、2035，大概都不會超過50%，都四十幾percent，希望再生能源能夠順利拉起來。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:34.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:43.909000+08:00","text":"我們的確在國家的NDC 3.0裡面，就有制定一些能源的結構，其實再生能源最多大概就到50%左右，希望燃煤可以降到大概20%以下。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:44.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:47.470000+08:00","text":"部長，你再注意這個議題好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:47.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:49.891000+08:00","text":"不要又被排到最後一名去了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:50.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:51.012000+08:00","text":"不會、不會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:52.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:19:56.737000+08:00","text":"我再請教一下，光儲案場要不要做環評？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:19:56.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:20:04.965000+08:00","text":"光儲案場目前應該是不用，因為它是屬於在一些設施下面。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:20:06.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:20:09.564000+08:00","text":"不一定，有些是在社區旁邊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂副司長雅雯","start":"2025-11-24T10:20:09.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:20:16.908000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前在我們環評的相關法規裡面並沒有針對儲能設施要求辦理環評，因為儲能設施……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:20:17.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:20:34.900000+08:00","text":"我看到的是，很多地方都在反對，這個問題也不是今天才發生的，一直以來這幾年我們陸陸續續都有看到民眾在抗爭，有些抗爭強一點的它就停下來，沒有抗爭的就繼續做，所以我覺得這個部分，你們有沒有想過要有一個規範？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"呂副司長雅雯","start":"2025-11-24T10:20:36.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:20:48.267000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們目前也有收到一些民眾會有一些擔憂跟疑慮，這在我們修訂環評的認定標準時可以一起討論，再看是不是要把它納入現在的法規裡面。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:20:50.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:21:07.174000+08:00","text":"對，因為居民不瞭解，我不敢說它一定會影響到旁邊，但是我認為這個場地的使用應該要有一個規範出來，讓業者或民眾也比較懂這個，要不然它隨時要設，民眾會恐慌，而且它沒有經過環評，也沒有辦說明會。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:21:07.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:21:30.558000+08:00","text":"沒有經過環評就沒有說明會，沒有說明會老百姓就會不懂，不懂的話，只要有人講什麼，他們當然就會擔心，因為這個部分有鋰電池在旁邊，第一是會不會造成對身體的影響，第二是會不會造成一些風險，萬一失火我們消防設施的規範是怎麼樣？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:21:30.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:21:31.638000+08:00","text":"這些都是要納入考量的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:21:34.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:21:34.713000+08:00","text":"這個我們會來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:21:35.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:21:45.137000+08:00","text":"委員，有一些再生能源或是新形態的或許大家要多一點瞭解，不是每一個都對我有害，不然我們現在的電動車也是一堆鋰電池在街上跑啊！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:21:45.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:21:46.318000+08:00","text":"這樣是不是會有害？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:21:46.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:21:49.599000+08:00","text":"所以基本上社會的溝通和認知可能要來加強。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:21:49.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:21:53.041000+08:00","text":"這個不一樣啦，車子加汽油當然也會爆炸，你也不能這樣講啦！是啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:21:55.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:22:00.084000+08:00","text":"所以你不能把這個鋰電池跟裝設儲能場……這是兩件事啊！","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:22:01.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:22:02.946000+08:00","text":"這是兩件事情，不要把它混為一談。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:22:04.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:22:15.098000+08:00","text":"問題是，這是固定的，如果它有危險，它就固定在我住家的旁邊，是長期在那裡的，車子是我有開、有上路才會比較危險，對不對？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:22:15.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:22:16.280000+08:00","text":"你不能這樣比較啊，對不對？是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:22:18.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:22:26.500000+08:00","text":"我們是希望，你們把這個東西的規範寫出來，讓業者、讓老百姓都能比較清楚。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:22:27.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:22:55.983000+08:00","text":"最後一個是光電三法三讀後，我看到很多光電業者跑去經濟部抗議，他們說環評門檻提高會拖慢開發、增加成本，所以我現在要問的是環境部自己的立場，光電環評加嚴經濟部本來就不樂見，你們之前的態度也一直不寫死，說是要先觀察、慢慢研議，現在國民黨、民眾黨已經把環評的範圍寫進母法裡面了，你們反而不用去當壞人。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:22:56.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:01.912000+08:00","text":"照理講，環境部應該是鬆一口氣，現在業者反彈了，環境部的態度是什麼？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:03.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:12.083000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實我們都有規劃在子法裡面要訂，而且我們的子法如果一公告就要做公聽會，本來就是這兩個月要做的事情。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:12.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:31.760000+08:00","text":"我記得黃國昌委員在大院質詢我，他要修改的時候，他說那個數額可以來討論，可是我覺得這次的修改，因為上個禮拜我剛好在國外，不好意思沒有參與到，但是我認為，環評的部分到底要訂在多少的量，沒有經過科學的討論就直接表決通過了，這是我覺得比較遺憾的地方。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:32.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:33.140000+08:00","text":"那個可以討論，但是少了窗口。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:33.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:37.642000+08:00","text":"那你會當環境永續的守門人嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:37.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:38.442000+08:00","text":"我們當然是守門人啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:39.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:41.663000+08:00","text":"你不要遇到壓力就開後門給人家走。不會。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:42.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:58.525000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為那個母法就已經在那邊，我們環境部要改也是很困難，我們也只能遵照大院的指示去做，但是守護環境，能在不破壞環境的情況下讓公眾多瞭解什麼是環評，然後多少要環評、衝擊是什麼，這個也是很重要的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:58.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:23:59.326000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席（劉委員建國）","start":"2025-11-24T10:23:59.826000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-24T10:24:08.111714+08:00","text":"接下來請王正旭委員詢答，王委員詢答結束之後，我們就休息10分鐘，謝謝。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}