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謝謝主席 我們邀請我們 主委好 請陳竺文"},{"start":18.544,"end":46.322,"text":"好 主委我想今天11月前幾天11月28號的時候經濟部核定了三座核電廠的現況評估報告認定核二跟核三有再運轉的可行性台電也隨即表示將會進行自主的安全檢查並在2023年3月會先提出一個再運轉計畫並且在2027年將自主安檢報告會送到核安會來審查我想"},{"start":48.344,"end":61.706,"text":"接下來這個核安會的角色到底是什麼就變得非常重要我們現在是我想要請主委回答我們核安會是被動的收建單位還是我們是核能安全的把關者"},{"start":68.759,"end":77.79,"text":"所以我们会非常想站在专业上面去做安全的实质审查对吗是的那我想就是说"},{"start":79.511,"end":97.722,"text":"當社會聽到這個聚在運轉可行性的時候呢就會認為你們好像已經在背書了我認為這個對你們的獨立性跟專業性會有非常大的考驗所以我希望你們還是能夠秉持著專業來去做實質的審查因為所有人都生長在這一片土地上面"},{"start":98.522,"end":113.489,"text":"好之前我們都一直不停的強調三個共識三個共識還是最重要的原則那接下來呢我也想要跟主委再請教就是根據核管法第16條之一我們確實是允許經營者先停出再運轉計畫再分階段來補齊第16條"},{"start":117.791,"end":144.85,"text":"所要求的一些重要文件包含整體的老化評估啊 耐震安全評估中期安全分析等等的但是我們也看到經濟部呢已經有提到說他們希望可以在2028年能夠進行再運轉那我想請教一下主委 根據您的經驗我們從專業的角度來看還有從國際的審查實務來看我們能夠保證在三年之內完成這件事情嗎核安會可以完成審查嗎 然後再運轉"},{"start":145.731,"end":162.861,"text":"河岸會一定依法根據國際的標準進行嚴格審查該做的項目很多時針上我們沒有辦法給個確定的日期多快可以審查完畢一切要依照依法實行"},{"start":163.991,"end":183.45,"text":"必要的安全检查所以我们依法行政嘛对不对依法执行嘛不会有一个确切的时间表嘛还是要回到就是国际的一个同财单位以及透过国际的专业审查来进行所有的实诚那是不是可以请教主委国际的专业审查的时程它们大概多久的时间呢"},{"start":185.564,"end":203.971,"text":"這也是不一定長短有的比較快有的會審查蠻長的對在我看到我今天收集到的資訊像法國就是像如主委說的差異時間非常的大法國甚至到了20年所以我想大家還是專業性在於安全的問題那"},{"start":206.232,"end":229.415,"text":"在11月的時候監察院其實也提出了一份報告就已經把問題講得非常清楚就是海淀在104年的時候就已經去做他們現在就依照了美國的SHAC Level 3的標準替三座核電廠做過機率式的地震危害分析結果發現我不曉得主委知道這份報告就是說三座核電廠實際可以承受的地震程度"},{"start":230.496,"end":258.688,"text":"比当年都已经超过当年建厂时的设计值也就是说其实我们的耐震力需要很大的一个调整因为这是有一个很大的疑虑那在114年核关法修法的时候呢我也要再澄清一个重点就是核电厂的运转执照其实都已经到齐了没有什么延续只有再运转所以我们所有的执行都必须依法重新来过依照这个SSHEC Level 3的分析结果把整电"},{"start":259.508,"end":272.558,"text":"整個核電廠的耐震 安全 色化老輩的問題重新評估之後才能夠重新申請再運轉執照我這樣子說對嗎 這個流程是這樣子嗎對 地震絕對是我們要檢驗的最重要的項目之一"},{"start":273.285,"end":302.785,"text":"好那接下來我也要來談核廢料的部分就是說我們現在呢其實不管怎麼講就是我們還沒有我們一直都有一個最關鍵的問題沒有處理就是像我們這個低放射性廢棄物選址條例從2006年立法之經將近20年我們都選不出一個最終處置場址那核二廠其實自己現在都是卡關的狀態因為乾式儲存設施沒有完工反映爐內的一個這個燃料棒還沒有退出來"},{"start":303.685,"end":321.681,"text":"就代表說我們到現在實務上根本無法執行那至於高放射性的廢棄物在經濟部6月的時候就已經公開他們會去提出高放選址的條例草案可是現在到12月了我們還是沒有看到任何的版本那"},{"start":322.742,"end":336.94,"text":"我想我們還是要非常坦白的去講過去國民黨在面對核廢料的問題其實都沒有真正來面對一直都沒有面對他們都一直停留在未來可以用乾式儲存先存40年再說"},{"start":339.281,"end":358.694,"text":"一直都沒有去面對最核心的一個核廢料處理的問題好那我這邊也覺得非常荒謬的是說我們今天還要協商青年基本法那其實在整個青年基本法討論的過程之中呢或者是我之前召開相關的環境的一個座談會的時候都會有年輕的朋友甚至兒少告訴我"},{"start":359.775,"end":383.61,"text":"我們現在所做的決定基本上承擔後果的都是他們因為在存40年之後在座的很多人可能都已經離開這個世界了可是我們的孩子就是要承受這一切後果的所以我就覺得非常的諷刺一邊說要尊重傾聽青年的聲音一邊要挺青年但是一邊我們做了這樣子的決議卻完全沒有去"},{"start":384.491,"end":402.452,"text":"考慮到下一代要承受什麼樣子的後果就只有把問題丟給下一代所以最後我也是想要再跟主委討論一下就是我們關於社會共識的部分核管法的第六條跟第五條其實都有去講到說我們的環評法"},{"start":404.878,"end":431.409,"text":"都有講到說我們需要保障我們的公眾安全而且要確保環境保護與生態保育那我想這個觀念其實一直在更新也一直在改變那環境部其實之前有說環評法需要修法彭啟明部長也在11月30號指出可以先進行政策性的環評但是實務上政策性環評只有遵循性質沒有任何的實質的否決權根本無法回應社會對於核電的一個疑慮"},{"start":432.609,"end":452.227,"text":"那過去呢 核安會也曾經在相關的報導說會是否要進行做環評呢 要由環境部來認定可是我認為作為核能安全的主管機關核安會有責任在相關的執法中清楚規範申請在運作時要具備哪些安全的 哪些文件"},{"start":453.328,"end":475.846,"text":"所以我想要請教主委在核電廠申請再運轉的制度上是否我們可以明確的去規範申請人必須檢部環評的相關資料我們可不可以把這樣子的一個要求納入執法裡面我們執法裡面也有包括輻射方面的安全評估"},{"start":477.085,"end":492.566,"text":"在河岸會的職責是對於輻射對環境的影響評估評估要負完全的責任至於其他方面的議題我們會和環境部來共同協商討論"},{"start":494.7,"end":512.47,"text":"我想其實大家一直在講環評就像剛剛講的環境部已經表示環評法需要修法他可以先做政策性的環評這部分環境部已經沒有問題了現在是說現在問題是在於要做環評這個是你們說這要由環境部來認定可是我認為這應該是你們要來認定的"},{"start":516.031,"end":543.587,"text":"問題在這裡我們核安會職責是針對那個輻射安全做環境影響評估這方面是核安會要負全部的責任但是問題是我們還有講到你們的第六條也有講到公眾安全還有這個環境保護跟生態保育等等的你們自己有提到我們現在是希望把這些東西也納入在環評裡面那這個是不是可以寫在執法裡面呢主委您的態度是"},{"start":545.642,"end":564.569,"text":"我跟委員說報告那核管法第五條是明確寫說要合於相關法令這部分那主管機關是回到環境部那核安會已經針對會裡面的主管事項就是輻射相關的議題包括對環境對工作人員的一些輻射的相關議題都已經納入到執法裡面"},{"start":566.75,"end":588.828,"text":"所以这部分河岸会已经按照自己的职责来处理那刚才那个主委也有提到针对非辐射部分的环境保护这部分可能会里面还会再跟环境部进行讨论那好因为我时间已经到了那我想就再给我一个时间你们大概会讨论多久我们可以来追踪过去的进度你们跟环境部"},{"start":593.007,"end":604.171,"text":"我們要跟環境部討論要再向委員報告好不好我想我需要一個時程表可不可以之後一個禮拜之後給我一個你們規劃的時程好嗎給我兩個星期好不好兩個星期好 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:31:58.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:32:01.874000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們邀請主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-12-11T10:32:02.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:32:12.445000+08:00","text":"請陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:32:15.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:32:38.302000+08:00","text":"主委，前幾天11月27號經濟部核定了三座核電廠的現況評估報告，認定核二跟核三有再運轉的可行性，台電也隨即表示將會進行自主的安全檢查，並在2026年3月會先提出一個再運轉計畫，並且在2027年將自主安檢報告送到核安會審查。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:32:41.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:32:54.686000+08:00","text":"因為接下來核安會的角色到底是什麼就變得非常重要，我現在想請主委回答，核安會是被動的收件單位，還是核能安全的把關者？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-12-11T10:32:54.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-11T10:33:01.759000+08:00","text":"我們核安會的職責就是對核電廠的把關工作，這是最重要的工作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:33:01.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:33:09.088000+08:00","text":"所以你們會非常站在專業地去做安全的實質審查，對嗎？是的。","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:33:12.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:33:37.065000+08:00","text":"好的，當社會聽到具再運轉可行性的時候，就會認為你們好像已經在背書了，我認為這個對你們的獨立性跟專業性會有非常大的考驗，所以我希望你們還是能夠秉持專業去做實質的審查，因為所有人都生長在這一片土地上面，之前我們都一直不停強調三個共識，三個共識還是最重要的原則。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:33:37.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:34:04.681000+08:00","text":"接下來我也想要跟主委再請教，根據核管法第十六條之一，我們確實允許經營者先提出再運轉計畫，再分階段補齊第十六條所要求的一些重要文件，包含整體的老化評估、耐震安全評估、中期安全分析等等的，但是我們也看到經濟部已經有提到說，他們希望可以在2028年能夠進行再運轉。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:34:05.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:34:15.969000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下主委，根據您的經驗，從專業的角度來看，還有從國際的審查實務來看，能夠保證在三年之內完成這件事情嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:34:15.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:34:17.850000+08:00","text":"核安會可以完成審查，然後再運轉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-12-11T10:34:19.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:34:38.593000+08:00","text":"核安會一定依法根據國際標準進行嚴格審查，該做的項目很多，時程上我們沒有辦法給個確定的日期，多快可以審查完畢，一切要依法實行必要的安全檢查。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:34:38.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:34:56.430000+08:00","text":"所以我們依法行政、依法執行，不會有一個確切的時間表，還是要回到國際的同儕單位，以及透過國際的專業審查來進行所有的時程，是不是可以請教主委，國際的專業審查時程，他們大概是多久的時間呢？","quality":0.59},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-12-11T10:34:58.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:35:03.646000+08:00","text":"這也是不一定，有的比較快，有的會審查蠻長的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:35:04.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:35:16.951000+08:00","text":"對，我看到我所蒐集到資訊，就是如主委說的，差異時間非常的大，法國甚至到了20年，所以大家認為專業性還是在於安全的問題。對。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:35:19.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:35:53.140000+08:00","text":"在11月時監察院其實也提出了一份報告，就已經把問題講得非常清楚，台電在104年時就已經去做，他們現在就依照美國的SSHAC Level 3的標準，替三座核電廠做過機率式的地震危害分析，我不曉得主委知不知道這份報告，結果發現三座核電廠實際可以承受的地震程度，跟當年相比，都已經超過當年建廠時的設計值，也就是說其實我們的耐震力需要很大的調整，因為就是有很大的疑慮。","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:35:54.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:36:07.686000+08:00","text":"在114年核管法修法的時候，我也要再澄清一個重點，就是核電廠的運轉執照其實都已經到期了，沒有什麼延役，只有再運轉，所以我們所有的執行都必須依法重新來過。","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:36:08.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:36:20.754000+08:00","text":"依照SSHAC Level 3的分析結果，把整個核電廠的耐震安全、設備老化的問題重新評估之後，才能夠重新申請再運轉執照，我這樣子說對嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:36:20.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:36:22.656000+08:00","text":"這個流程是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-12-11T10:36:22.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:36:25.538000+08:00","text":"對，地震絕對是我們要檢驗最重要的項目之一。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:36:26.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:36:46.539000+08:00","text":"好，接下來我也要來談核廢料的部分，現在其實不管怎麼講，我們一直都有一個最關鍵的問題沒有處理，有關低放射性廢棄物選址條例從2006年立法至今將近20年，我們都選不出一個最終處置場址。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:36:48.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:37:01.450000+08:00","text":"核二廠其實現在都是卡關的狀態，因為乾式貯存設施沒有完工，反應爐內的燃料棒還沒有退出來，就代表說我們到現在實務上根本無法執行。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:37:02.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:37:13.460000+08:00","text":"至於高放射性的廢棄物，經濟部在6月時就已經公開，他們會提出高放選址的條例草案，可是現在到12月了，我們還是沒有看到任何版本。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:37:16.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:37:36.504000+08:00","text":"我們還是要非常坦白地講，過去國民黨在面對核廢料的問題，其實都沒有真正來面對、一直都沒有面對，他們都一直停留在未來可以用乾式貯存，先存40年再說，一直都沒有去面對最核心的核廢料處理的問題。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:37:37.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:38:05.323000+08:00","text":"我這邊也覺得非常荒謬的是，我們今天還要協商青年基本法，其實在整個青年基本法討論的過程之中，或者是我之前召開一個環境相關的座談會時，都會有年輕的朋友，甚至兒少告訴我，我們現在所做的決定，基本上承擔後果的都是他們，因為再存40年之後，在座很多人可能都已經離開這個世界了，可是我們的孩子就是要承受這一切後果的人。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:38:06.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:38:23.017000+08:00","text":"所以我就覺得非常諷刺，一邊說要尊重、傾聽青年的聲音，要挺青年，但是另一邊我們做了這樣子的決議，卻完全沒有去考慮到下一代要承受什麼樣子的後果，就只有把問題丟給下一代。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:38:23.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:38:44.941000+08:00","text":"所以最後我想要再跟主委討論一下關於社會共識的部分，核管法第六條跟第五條其實都有講到我們需要保障公眾之健康及安全，而且要確保環境保護與生態保育。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:38:45.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:38:51.304000+08:00","text":"我想這個觀念一直在更新，也一直在改變，環境部其實之前有說環評法需要修法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:38:51.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:39:04.409000+08:00","text":"彭啓明部長也在11月30號指出可以先進行政策性的環評，但是實務上，政策性環評只有徵詢性質，沒有任何實質的否決權，根本無法回應社會對於核電的疑慮。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:39:06.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:39:25.207000+08:00","text":"過去核安會也曾經在相關的報導說是否要先做環評，要由環境部來認定，可是我認為做為核能安全的主管機關，核安會有責任在相關的子法中清楚規範申請再運轉時要具備哪些相關文件。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:39:26.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:39:37.177000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教主委，在核電廠申請再運轉的制度上，是否我們可以明確去規範申請人必須檢附環評的相關資料？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:39:37.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:39:42.281000+08:00","text":"我們可不可以把這樣子的一個要求納入子法裡面？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-12-11T10:39:43.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:40:05.566000+08:00","text":"我們子法裡面也有包括輻射方面的安全評估，核安會的職責是針對輻射對環境的影響評估要負完全的責任，至於其他方面的議題，我們會和環境部來共同協商討論。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:40:08.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:40:29.892000+08:00","text":"其實大家一直在講環評，就像剛剛講的，環境部已經表示環評法需要修法，它可以先做政策性的環評，這部分環境部已經沒有問題，可是現在問題是在於要做環評，你們說這要由環境部來認定，可是我認為這應該是你們要來認定的，問題在這裡。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-12-11T10:40:29.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:40:40.738000+08:00","text":"我們核安會職責是針對輻射安全做環境影響評估，這方面核安會要負全部的責任，其他……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:40:42.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:40:55.726000+08:00","text":"但是問題是你們的第六條有講到公眾安全，還有環境保護跟生態保育等等的，你們自己有提到，我們現在是希望把這些東西也納入在環評裡面，這個是不是也可以寫在子法裡面呢？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:40:55.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:40:56.567000+08:00","text":"主委，您的態度是什麼？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"高組長斌","start":"2025-12-11T10:40:58.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:22.993000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，核管法第五條明確規定要合於相關法令，主管機關是回到環境部，核安會已經針對會裡面的主管事項，也就是輻射相關的議題，包括對環境、對工作人員的輻射相關議題，都已經納入到子法裡面，所以這部分核安會已經按照自己的職責來處理。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"高組長斌","start":"2025-12-11T10:41:23.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:32.520000+08:00","text":"剛才主委也有提到針對非輻射部分的環境保護，這部分可能會裡面還會再跟環境部進行討論。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:41:34.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:39.146000+08:00","text":"因為我的發言時間已經到了，我想你再給我一個時間，你們跟環境部大概會討論多久，我們可以來追蹤後續的進度？","quality":0.447},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-12-11T10:41:46.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:49.168000+08:00","text":"我們跟環境部討論之後再向委員報告好不好？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:41:49.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:54.310000+08:00","text":"我想我需要一個時程表，可不可以一個禮拜之後給我一個你們規劃的時程好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-12-11T10:41:54.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:55.770000+08:00","text":"給我兩個星期好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2025-12-11T10:41:56.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:56.391000+08:00","text":"兩個星期，好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-12-11T10:41:56.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:57.171000+08:00","text":"謝謝張雅琳委員，請官員回座。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-12-11T10:41:57.671000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-11T10:41:59.956714+08:00","text":"請林宜瑾委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}