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請彭部長議員好 額部長早 今天我要給你一個很大的肯定 你在核電重啟環評的這一題上 被媒體說管太多可是我覺得你管得剛剛好 因為核能"},{"start":21.65,"end":37.309,"text":"安全跟環境事跨部會跟世代影響的一個議題沒有人沒有任何部會都能夠去當局外人部長 三個月在野黨把設置後不會產生污染"},{"start":38.05,"end":59.329,"text":"物質的光電板在環評法直接加嚴那以同一套的對環境影響更為嚴謹的標準來看的話那面對1984年開始運轉40年在國家公園周邊的河山要重啟的話還有核廢料的問題我相信環評應該要更嚴謹如果依據光電板現在設置環評的邏輯的話在野黨應該要支持"},{"start":62.652,"end":84.346,"text":"所以我請部長講清楚超過年限已除役的核電廠要重設環境部的立場是什麼那輻射影響評估是核安會的責任但影響環境的專業在你這邊而且核能會的主委也說依法應由台電來請環境部評估那部長環境部能提供什麼樣專業建議台電有沒有找你開會了"},{"start":85.186,"end":112.964,"text":"包委員這個台電是目的事業機關我不用找他開會我是直接跟河安會的主委我們有通過電話未來的分工那目前我們也跟委員報告這個還要延伸因為他們是核輻射的一個專業那對環境影響是我們在這邊的專業所以我們現在有在討論說未來要如何分工要來如何處理那目前因為這個他的許可最重要是他他要必須要負擔更多的責任這樣好"},{"start":114.305,"end":123.569,"text":"部長你先請經濟部代表協助我釐清一則新聞我也知道你今天事實上不是來次長也不是來部長來署長可是還是要來講這件事因為媒體已經報導出來說期待核電加速運轉的民間團體轉述轉述你經濟部經濟部認為核電廠再運轉只是原有機組的安檢換修不涉及環評"},{"start":139.756,"end":164.604,"text":"那我想請經濟部應該自己要去對媒體或者是今天在這邊講清楚啊超過40年原始設計的核電廠廚藝在運轉真的只有安檢換修而已嗎這已經是登在媒體上經濟部自己有沒有去看要去回應啊如果他講錯的不對的你們要不要回應第二個問題是部分民間團體說經濟部把廚藝後再啟用要不要環評類比火力發電廠研議耶"},{"start":166.385,"end":192.98,"text":"我就要問活力會產生污染可是會產生核廢料嗎不會嘛那有沒有核廢料風險評估的災害規模應該差很多吧你們認為可以直接類比的理由是什麼不懂就是說怎麼可以去類比我們的活力發變這兩種不太同的一個等級另外除以後再運轉法律上到底算不算直接演繹是不是涉及重新授權你們要說明"},{"start":193.52,"end":210.218,"text":"我會這樣問是因為我看到經濟部我們新修訂的核管法依新修訂的核管法及其辦法展開核一核二核三現況的一個評估那核電廠除役後要再啟動更複雜了那安檢應該只是第一步所以我要問最後一句"},{"start":211.164,"end":224.923,"text":"經濟部現在經濟部是要等核安會提出完整需求才要來做後續的要不要還平的一個評估嗎我相信你現在沒辦法回答請你們再回去經濟部如果媒體報導的錯誤民間訴說的是錯誤"},{"start":228.287,"end":249.35,"text":"為什麼不回應本來今天想讓你們在這邊回應清楚請你們要嘛對媒體會另外一個把針對我剛剛問的這幾題那麻煩回覆到我們辦公室我覺得如果不正確的真的都要回應報告委員因為那個民團他不是很懂得環評的定義啦那他用這樣的一個比喻是不對的"},{"start":250.411,"end":260.479,"text":"是 可是為什麼 他說他轉述經濟部那經濟部為什麼都沒有回應呢所以我才想說今天有這個機會讓經濟部要做好好的回應那麻煩我們的署長請回 謝謝部長 賴總統的那個"},{"start":269.814,"end":288.949,"text":"也就是核能的三個核心安全無虞核廢料有解社會共識我認為你最近的發言就是在落實這三個核心因為現實是核二甘思的儲存潮要建制延拓了十年到現在還卡著台灣現在的制度很魔幻"},{"start":289.87,"end":315.888,"text":"要除役的核電廠要還平再多用20年的反而不用光電只要敏感區位就要還平那麼核三要再運轉的話不能只是修法說那我要延長20年就好了沒有制度配套也不能說被說成說只是行政單位的安檢換修就好我認為法規未盡之處的話反而要更積極作為所以部長我請你先做簡單"},{"start":317.081,"end":342.967,"text":"從環境單位你是一個環境部的最大的核廢料到此時此刻有最終處置的解方嗎目前我所知道是有些國家是開始有但是很多國家還是用乾式儲存槽放在那個地方那這個議題呢我們現在環境部也在研議當中就是說也剛剛謝謝委員剛剛提到的就是說因為很多的國家的環境部是管"},{"start":343.487,"end":363.081,"text":"核能安全的後端的處理那我們環境部是沒有這樣的機構例如說日本的環境省他就連核安的部分也管他大概有一千多人在裡面韓國也管然後很多的國家有環評的是他的核安就在他的裡面你現在完全還沒有有一些環境可是現在要講核三"},{"start":363.861,"end":378.479,"text":"所以接著兩個重點就從第一從你主管的環評法來看的話對核電廠除役後再啟動研議把它理解為新的權利授予能源設施設置的重新授權是否合一"},{"start":379.019,"end":402.208,"text":"我們正在演繹因為從這個字面解釋我同意委員的觀點但是我們現在環評法因為環評法的確是把光電拉的非常的嚴可是對於這種新的沒有那麼的嚴對 所以這個其實產生了一些落差所以我們的確在演繹第二個民間團體的對法規疑問是核管法的第六條第四項說運轉執照換發準用第五條第一項"},{"start":402.808,"end":425.29,"text":"也就是准用建廠審核的要件其中包含環境保護跟生態保育的影響要合乎相關法律那照這個邏輯運轉執照換發准用的建廠執照的一個規定就應該提出經環境部認可的環評的相關資料部長 如果這樣的法規解釋是否合宜那環境部要怎麼去規劃上訴的一個環評資料"},{"start":428.132,"end":455.94,"text":"對 這個我也有想讀過的確我們是內部有討論說這樣的一個可能的問題然後比較各個國家因為我們沒有重新這個環評重啟要這個核能重啟要環評的一個經驗所以這個部分我們未來會跟核安會來討論說哪一個算是我們這邊的哪一個是他們那邊的所以最後我還是要強調你提出來的政策環評是建立社會共識不可少的一步讓意見能夠公開充分表達"},{"start":457.059,"end":470.458,"text":"核電從起牽扯到風險不確定利益衝突還有世代正義的問題所以所有可能的影響跟真實的風險都必須要被評估被辯論被監督我希望提醒部長這一塊"},{"start":472.13,"end":487.117,"text":"那部長基隆這起廢油偷牌的事件已經影響到基隆民生用水我有兩個問題要請教第一個問題是報導說業者長期用廠內那個油污水分離"},{"start":487.857,"end":509.654,"text":"把分離後的還有污染成分的無味透明的廢水偷排到基隆河還對外招攬生意五年不法所得超過五千萬請問部長既然是無味透明但有污染成分為什麼一直沒被偵測到這次是業者失誤才爆出來嗎你認為這個問題出在哪邊未來要怎麼去處理"},{"start":510.795,"end":525.038,"text":"因為這個抽水的這個供水區域的上游區的管理是基隆市政府所以他們其實應該要平常要積極的對於供水可能的上游因為旁邊的那個工業區還蠻多的其實他們應該我們有請他們一定要"},{"start":526.539,"end":551.205,"text":"這個強化這個稽查的頻率那這次有幾家他是自己排那這個是罪證確鑿被檢察官這個抓到所以這個的權責是基隆市政府可是為什麼偵查不到呢就是他竟然有污染成分而且事發地點就在淨水廠周邊所謂污染成分到底是什麼你們有沒有掌握他們的技術以及過去排放污水的這個污染的這個成分的這個東西對人體的危害是什麼"},{"start":551.465,"end":570.371,"text":"有 這個其實後來一開始有兩家被開罰因為他沒有在列管他並沒有來做申報所以已經被開罰了那這家主要是後來我們透過一些跟檢察官那個細節我就不能對外說但是檢察官跟我們合作在一起有一個平台就主動去偵查到他"},{"start":571.067,"end":590.888,"text":"可是部長這家是累犯前次偷牌只罰五萬五這次是因為上新聞才準備重罰到千萬我問的是我們的裁罰的裁量怎麼會落差這麼的大你們去年去年底修正發布了違反水污染防治法"},{"start":591.849,"end":612.089,"text":"那個罰還的額度跟裁罰基準也有點才記點的一個副表那很完備但也相對複雜請問部長從去年到現在環境部有沒有檢視各縣市是否依這套標準準則來做裁罰你們要怎麼去協助地方做那個裁量又怎麼樣去做後續的那個檢視啊"},{"start":612.93,"end":632.407,"text":"好 包委員這個其實這裡面因為這次的水務法也要靠地方環保局在做所以因為我們剛過完那樣的東西未來我們會跟地方再去針對這個財閥的量子因為全台灣不是只有基隆這個有風險還有很多地方所以這個我們會來我覺得部長不然就會變成上新聞兩千萬沒上新聞五萬五"},{"start":633.347,"end":650.896,"text":"這不是制度該有的做法會後也請部長提供相關資料讓我們知道你們這一年來怎麼去監督檢視各縣市是否用這個裁罰基準來做裁罰部長今年我們面對到的是天災人禍下的巨量的廢棄物的處置"},{"start":651.736,"end":676.57,"text":"我很肯定你願意面對也在想辦法但這幾個月我都聽到的答案幾乎都是一樣的量能不足 招標不順所以只能先擺著可是這不是解決 是拖著而已我先問進度跟時程 請部長直接回答風災後的實棉屋跟太陽能板台中臨時處理的廚餘掩埋目前進度到哪裡 能不能最終解決"},{"start":677.89,"end":691.555,"text":"太陽光電板沒有問題已經已經全面那實棉烏瓦呢那實棉烏瓦已經都進到了一個程序當中大概兩萬多吨那台中臨時處理的那個廚餘掩埋呢廚餘掩埋它已經不進廚餘掩埋了它現在全部進去焚化"},{"start":692.694,"end":708.645,"text":"那我最關心的還是花蓮光復鄉幾十萬噸的災後淤泥跟廢棄物現在難以篩分無法招標無力清運部長你們有沒有預估最糟的情況下對環境的衝擊是什麼到底要怎麼做"},{"start":710.106,"end":736.02,"text":"這個最重要是因為東部的這樣的業者處理的量能的確不足那我們現在雖然爭取到這個特別的條例的預算但是真的要去執行現在還沒有開始執行但是因為這個可能要跟地方來做合作那委員說到的問題我們現在正在面對當中所以現在我們也希望更好的業者能夠來協助來處理這個事情那請環境部把這幾項的處置的進度跟現況給我一個比較清楚的說明的資料第二步"},{"start":736.74,"end":759.242,"text":"我要問制度面 事業廢棄物 進一般家用的垃圾 焚化爐現在的垃圾的熱值提升那焚化爐老舊 縣市調度困難 最後還是垃圾堆著 風險只會累積所以我要具體要求是說我們的源頭減量不能再用後端處理落差到22倍了這是過往的平均的數字"},{"start":760.163,"end":770.564,"text":"所以請問部長明年度就算預算能不能省還不確定的狀況底下但是你們編列源頭減量跟後端處理的經費比例是多少會不會改善"},{"start":771.09,"end":795.035,"text":"包委其實他這樣的說法因為他不了解我們的政府的預算因為我們還有資源回收的一個費如果把那個算進去的話我們早就超過很多了啦所以這個部分我們可以再跟委員再做一個說明或者不然源頭不管之的話末端永遠燒不完那這題就麻煩你們到時候再給我相關的資料那我們也希望你整個的預算源頭的減量的配置跟經費配置都要給我好謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:47:07.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:47:08.311000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請環境部部長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-12-15T09:47:08.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:47:08.351000+08:00","text":"請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:47:08.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:47:08.351000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:47:08.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:47:08.391000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:47:08.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:47:35.262000+08:00","text":"今天我要給你一個很大的肯定，你在核電重啟環評的這一題上被媒體說管太多了，可是我覺得你管得剛剛好，因為核能安全跟環境是跨部會跟世代影響的一個議題，沒有任何部會能夠當局外人。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:47:37.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:48:00.787000+08:00","text":"部長，上個月在野黨把設置後不會產生污染物質的光電板在環評法直接加嚴，以同一套對環境影響更為嚴謹的標準來看的話，面對1984年開始運轉40年，在國家公園周邊的核三要重啟的話，還有核廢料的問題，我相信環評應該要更嚴謹。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:48:00.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:48:13.356000+08:00","text":"如果依據現在光電板設置要環評的邏輯的話，在野黨應該要支持，所以我請部長講清楚，超過年限、已除役的核電廠要重設，環境部的立場是什麼？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:48:13.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:48:27.645000+08:00","text":"輻射影響評估是核安會的責任，但影響環境的專業在你這邊，而且核安會主委也說，依法應由台電來請環境部評估，部長，環境部能提供什麼樣專業建議？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:48:27.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:48:28.326000+08:00","text":"台電有沒有找你開會？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:48:29.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:48:56.284000+08:00","text":"報告委員，台電是目的事業主管機關，我不用找它開會，我是直接跟核安會主委有通過電話討論未來的分工，也跟委員報告，這個還要研商，因為他們是核輻射的專業，而對環境影響是我們這邊的專業，所以我們現在有在討論未來要如何分工、要如何來處理，目前因為它的許可……最重要的是它必須要負擔更多的責任。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:48:58.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:49:04.748000+08:00","text":"部長請先留步，我先請經濟部代表協助我釐清一則新聞，我也知道今天經濟部不是部長、次長來，是署長來，可是還是要請你來講這件事。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:49:04.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:49:07.569000+08:00","text":"因為媒體已經報導，期待核電加速運轉的民間團體轉述經濟部的說法是，經濟部認為核電廠再運轉只是原有機組的安檢換修，不涉及環評。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:49:23.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:49:36.280000+08:00","text":"我想請經濟部去對媒體或者是今天在這邊講清楚，超過40年原始設計的核電廠除役再運轉，真的只有安檢換修而已嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:49:36.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:49:39.341000+08:00","text":"這已經是登在媒體上的報導，經濟部自己有沒有去看？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:49:40.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:49:42.602000+08:00","text":"如果他講錯，有不對的，你們要不要回應？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:49:42.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:49:48.564000+08:00","text":"第二個問題是，部分民間團體說，經濟部把除役後再啟用要不要環評類比火力發電廠延役。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:49:50.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:49:55.088000+08:00","text":"我就要問，火力會產生污染，可是會產生核廢料嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:49:55.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:49:55.448000+08:00","text":"不會嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:49:56.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:50:00.010000+08:00","text":"有沒有核廢料，其風險評估的災害規模應該差很多吧？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:50:01.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:50:03.592000+08:00","text":"你們認為可以直接類比的理由是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:50:03.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:50:07.395000+08:00","text":"我不懂，這兩個的等級不太相同，怎麼可以去類比火力發電？","quality":0.458},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:50:10.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:50:16.299000+08:00","text":"另外，除役後再運轉，法律上到底算不算直接延役，是不是涉及重新授權？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:50:16.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:50:16.960000+08:00","text":"你們要說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:50:17.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:50:44.196000+08:00","text":"我會這樣問是因為我看到經濟部依新修訂的核管法及其辦法展開核一、核二、核三現況的評估，核電廠除役後要再啟動更複雜了，安檢應該只是第一步，所以我要問最後一句話，現在經濟部是要等核安會提出完整需求，才要來做後續要不要環評的一個評估嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:50:44.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:50:53.589000+08:00","text":"我相信你現在沒辦法回答，請你們帶回去，如果媒體報導的是錯誤，民間訴說的是錯誤，經濟部為什麼不回應？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:50:53.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:51:03.440000+08:00","text":"本來今天想讓你們在這邊回應清楚，請你們對媒體回應，還有針對我剛剛問的這幾題，麻煩回復到我們辦公室。好。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:51:04.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:51:07.544000+08:00","text":"我覺得如果有不正確的真的都要回應。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:51:07.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:51:13.330000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為那個民團不是很懂得環評的定義，那他用這樣的一個比喻是不對的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:51:15.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:51:18.495000+08:00","text":"他說他轉述經濟部的說法，那經濟部為什麼都沒有回應呢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:51:18.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:51:24.419000+08:00","text":"所以我才想說今天有這個機會讓經濟部做好好的回應，署長請回，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:51:24.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:52:31.744000+08:00","text":"部長，賴總統提出核能的三個核心，也就是安全無虞、核廢料有解、社會共識，我認為你最近的發言就是在落實這三個核心，因為現實是核二乾式貯存槽建置延宕了10年，到現在還卡著，臺灣現在的制度很魔幻，要除役的核電廠要環評，再多用20年的反而不用；光電只要設在敏感區位就要環評，核三要再運轉的話，不能只是修法說我要延長20年就好了，沒有制度配套，也不能被說成只是行政單位的安檢換修就好，我認為法規未盡之處反而更要積極作為，所以部長，我請你先做簡答，從環境單位的立場，你是環境部最大的首長，核廢料到此時此刻有最終處置的解方嗎？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:52:31.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:53:02.938000+08:00","text":"目前我所知道有些國家是開始有，但是很多國家還是用乾式貯存槽放在那個地方，這個議題環境部也在研議當中，也謝謝委員剛剛提到的，因為很多國家的環境部是管核能安全的後端處理，而我們環境部是沒有這樣的機構，例如說日本的環境省，它連核安的部分也管，大概有一千多人在裡面；韓國也管；然後很多有環評的國家是他的核安就在環境部門裡面。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:53:03.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:53:22.258000+08:00","text":"你現在完全還沒有一些……可是現在要講核三，所以接著兩個重點，第一，從你主管的環評法來看，對核電廠除役後再啟動延役，把它理解為新的權利授予，能源設施設置的重新授權是否合宜？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:53:23.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:53:34.703000+08:00","text":"我們正在研議，因為從這個字面解釋我同意委員的觀點，但是我們現在環評法的確是把光電拉得非常的嚴，可是對於這種新的沒有那麼嚴。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:53:34.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-15T09:53:35.703000+08:00","text":"反而沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:53:34.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:53:37.765000+08:00","text":"對，這個其實產生了一些落差，所以我們的確在研議。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:53:38.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:53:54.416000+08:00","text":"第二，民間團體對法規的疑問是，核管法第六條第四項規定，運轉執照換發準用第五條第一項規定，也就是準用建廠審核的要件，其中包含環境保護跟生態保育的影響要合乎相關法律。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:53:54.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:54:07.809000+08:00","text":"照這個邏輯，運轉執照換發準用建廠執照的規定就應該提出經環境部認可的環評相關資料，部長，這樣的法規解釋是否合宜？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:54:08.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:54:09.270000+08:00","text":"環境部要怎麼去規劃上述的環評資料？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:54:12.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:54:31.478000+08:00","text":"對，這個我也有詳讀過，的確我們內部有討論這樣一個可能的問題，然後比較各個國家，因為我們沒有核能重啟要環評的經驗，所以這個部分我們未來會跟核安會來討論哪一個算是我們這邊的，哪一個是他們那邊的，然後才能夠來處理。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:54:32.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:54:54.458000+08:00","text":"最後，我還是要強調，你提出來的政策環評是建立社會共識不可少的一步，讓意見能夠公開、充分表達，核電重啟牽扯到風險不確定、利益衝突，還有世代正義的問題，所以所有可能的影響跟真實的風險都必須要被評估、被辯論、被監督，我希望提醒部長這一塊。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:54:54.458000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-15T09:54:58.091000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:54:58.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:55:24.347000+08:00","text":"部長，基隆這起廢油偷排的事件已經影響到基隆民生用水，我有兩個問題要請教，第一個問題是，報導說，業者長期用廠內廢油污水分離設備分離廢油污水，把分離後含污染成分的無味、透明的廢水偷排到基隆河，還對外招攬生意，5年不法所得超過五千萬。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:55:24.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:55:28.670000+08:00","text":"請問部長，既然是無味、透明，但有污染成分，為什麼一直沒被偵測到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:55:29.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:55:31.653000+08:00","text":"這次是業者失誤才爆出來嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:55:31.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:55:32.934000+08:00","text":"你認為這個問題出在哪邊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:55:32.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:55:33.634000+08:00","text":"未來要怎麼去處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:55:34.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:55:51.619000+08:00","text":"因為抽水供水區域的上游區是由基隆市政府管理，他們其實平常應該要積極地對於供水可能的上游……因為旁邊的工業區還滿多的，我們有請他們一定要強化稽查的頻率。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:55:52.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:55:59.281000+08:00","text":"這次有幾家是自己排，而這個是罪證確鑿，被檢察官抓到，所以這個權責是基隆市政府……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:55:59.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:00.662000+08:00","text":"可是為什麼偵查不到呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:02.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:08.243000+08:00","text":"它既然有污染成分，而且事發地點就在淨水場周邊，所謂污染成分到底是什麼？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:08.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:15.205000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有掌握他們的技術，以及過去排放污水裡的污染成分對人體的危害是什麼？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:15.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:24.228000+08:00","text":"有，一開始有兩家被開罰，因為他們被列管，但他們並沒有來做申報，所以已經被開罰了。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:24.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:34.351000+08:00","text":"至於這家，主要是後來我們透過跟檢察官……細節部分我不能對外說，但是檢察官跟我們有合作一個平臺，所以主動去偵查到他。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:35.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:37.009000+08:00","text":"可是部長，這家是累犯耶！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:37.009000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:38.050000+08:00","text":"是累犯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:38.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:43.256000+08:00","text":"前次偷排只罰五萬五，這次是因為上新聞才準備重罰到千萬。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:43.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:56:49.262000+08:00","text":"我問的是，我們的裁罰、裁量怎麼會落差這麼大？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:56:49.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:57:11.084000+08:00","text":"你們去年底修正發布違反水污染防治法罰鍰額度裁罰準則，採記點的附表，很完備但也相對複雜，請問部長，從去年到現在，環境部有沒有檢視各縣市是否依這套準則來做裁罰？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:57:11.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:57:16.069000+08:00","text":"你們要怎麼去協助地方做裁量，又怎麼樣做後續的檢視？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:57:17.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:57:32.483000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實這次的水污法也要靠地方環保局在做，因為我們剛通過完那樣的東西，未來我們會跟地方再針對裁罰的量能……因為全臺灣不是只有基隆有風險，還有很多地方，所以這個我會來……","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:57:32.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:57:49.813000+08:00","text":"部長，不然就會變成上新聞的兩千萬，沒上新聞的五萬五，這不是制度該有的作法，會後也請部長提供相關資料，讓我們知道你們這一年來怎麼去監督、檢視各縣市是否用這個裁罰基準來做裁罰。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:57:49.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:08.743000+08:00","text":"部長，今年我們面對到天災人禍下巨量廢棄物的處置，我很肯定你願意面對，也在想辦法，但這幾個月來我聽到的答案幾乎都是一樣，量能不足、招標不順，所以只能先擺著，可是這不是解決，只是拖著而已。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:09.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:19.709000+08:00","text":"我先問進度跟時程，請部長直接回答，風災後的石綿屋瓦跟太陽能板以及臺中臨時處理的廚餘掩埋，目前進度到哪裡？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:19.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:20.570000+08:00","text":"能不能最終解決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:21.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:24.611000+08:00","text":"太陽光電板沒有問題，已經全面……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:25.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:25.731000+08:00","text":"石綿屋瓦呢？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:26.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:28.752000+08:00","text":"石綿屋瓦已經都進到一個程序，當中大概兩萬多噸。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:29.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:31.713000+08:00","text":"臺中臨時處理的廚餘掩埋呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:31.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:35.535000+08:00","text":"廚餘掩埋的部分已經不進廚餘掩埋了，現在全部進去焚化。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:36.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:52.004000+08:00","text":"我最關心的還是花蓮光復鄉幾十萬噸的災後淤泥跟廢棄物，現在難以篩分、無法招標、無力清運，部長，你們有沒有預估最糟的情況下，對環境的衝擊是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:52.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:58:52.625000+08:00","text":"到底要怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:58:54.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:59:13.696000+08:00","text":"這個最重要的是因為東部這樣的業者不多，處理的量能的確不足，我們雖然爭取到特別條例的預算，但是現在還沒有開始執行，因為這個可能要跟地方來合作，委員說到的問題，我們現在正在面對當中，也希望有更好的業者能夠來協助處理這個事情。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:59:13.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:59:19.379000+08:00","text":"請環境部把這幾項的處置進度跟現況，給我一個比較清楚的說明資料。好。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:59:19.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:59:21.541000+08:00","text":"第二部分，我要問制度面。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:59:22.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:59:34.334000+08:00","text":"事業廢棄物進一般家用的垃圾焚化爐，現在的垃圾熱值提升、焚化爐老舊、縣市調度困難，最後還是垃圾堆著，風險只會累積。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:59:34.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:59:43.222000+08:00","text":"所以我要具體要求，我們的源頭減量不能再用後端處理落差到22倍，這是過往的平均數字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:59:44.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:59:53.903000+08:00","text":"所以請問部長，明年度就算在預算能不能審還不確定的狀況底下，你們編列源頭減量跟後端處理的經費比例是多少？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T09:59:54.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T09:59:54.544000+08:00","text":"會不會改善？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T09:59:55.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T10:00:03.052000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實他這樣的說法是因為他不了解我們政府的預算，因為我們還有資源回收的「費」，如果把那個算進去的話，我們早就超過很多了啦！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T10:00:03.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T10:00:06.152000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分，我們可以再跟委員做說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T10:00:06.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T10:00:09.513000+08:00","text":"好，否則源頭不管制的話，末端永遠燒不完。是。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2025-12-15T10:00:11.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T10:00:19.015000+08:00","text":"這題就麻煩你們到時候再給我相關的資料，我們也希望你整個的預算，源頭減量的配置跟經費配置都要給我，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-12-15T10:00:19.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-15T10:00:19.035000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一代）","start":"2025-12-15T10:00:19.535000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-15T10:00:21.535000+08:00","text":"謝謝林月琴委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席（盧委員縣一代）","start":"2025-12-15T10:00:21.835000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-15T10:00:24.692143+08:00","text":"現在請廖偉翔召委質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}