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謝謝主席這邊首先先有請司法院的李廳長還有書記廳的廳長"},{"start":18.319,"end":39.684,"text":"李聽長好這次大法官做出五人判決我想也引起了全社會的嘩然我首先想請教聽長你之前本來就是刑事庭的法官我想請問一下在一般你們做你們在合議庭裡面如果說法官有人拒絕評議的時候你們會怎麼處理"},{"start":42.492,"end":60.562,"text":"根據我們的經驗沒有發生這樣的事情如果有人拒絕評議你們會怎麼樣案子會一直擱著嘛是不是案子會被擱著等到有法官或是說是在換另外一個法官的時候加入評議你們才會開始審議"},{"start":63.547,"end":87.593,"text":"我們一直沒有這樣的經驗從來沒有過這樣的經驗民聽法官也沒有應該是您是民聽法官嗎我之前是辦理民視事務那也跟委員說明在我的審判經驗中我沒有遇過和議庭的法官拒絕參與評議的情形所以在你們規則裡面沒有針對如果說有法官拒絕評議的時候怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":93.665,"end":106.282,"text":"因為在一般的法院裡面其實我們會有因為一般的法院的法官人員會比較充裕假設 我說假設如果真的遇到有法官持續的拒絕參與評議"},{"start":107.904,"end":133.051,"text":"那可能在必要的情形下會去變動相關的事物分配那或者是就換別的法官來參與評議嘛對不對也就是你們還是要達到全部的法官都要這個一起參與評議才可以做成裁判才可以做成判決對不對按照你們現在做法不就是這樣嗎"},{"start":135.006,"end":153.162,"text":"委員在一般的法院法官緣而充足的情形但是憲法法庭沒有這樣子的狀況憲法法庭的大法官沒有其他沒有代理的問題所以要等到他補足了之後才開始審議嘛這是最簡單不過的道理"},{"start":160.578,"end":186.721,"text":"今天五人五位大法官做出的判決他就是明顯違反了不管是舊制或新制的限訴法的規定他就是一個違法的組成然後又做成了這個判決請問這兩位法官就是如果在一般的實務法事務上這個裁判如果說是違反這個法定的組織程序這個裁判是怎麼樣是不是自恥當仁無效"},{"start":189.192,"end":201.877,"text":"我們去講一般的法理如果是在一般法院部分是不會發生這樣的事情沒有啦 如果發生了呢這叫組織不合法的問題那可能就被上訴審就撤銷掉了啦"},{"start":205.404,"end":225.115,"text":"好 所以撤銷 所以就代表什麼 就還是違法嘛對不對 違法無效的判決才會被撤銷會因為組織不合法而被撤銷對 因為組織不合法而被撤銷好 那接下來我想請問針對大法官組織不合法所作成的判決誰來約束 誰來制衡違憲違法的大法官這個部分可能我們不太適合回答這個是憲法法庭的獨立的運作那可能我們現在我們有沒有這個規定嘛"},{"start":237.691,"end":266.405,"text":"我們憲法訴訟法裡面有沒有這樣規定針對違法違憲大法官違反這個組織法定程序所做出來的判決我們現在有沒有任何究竟程序我想跟您說明現在沒有一個大法官解釋或是憲法法庭的判決是組織不合法好很好也所以從我們行憲我們大法官會議組成以來到現在從來沒有出現過任何一例的五人判決對不對"},{"start":268.39,"end":283.258,"text":"我沒說錯吧 從來沒有過在過去 我們的大法官會議甚至還要達到四分之三或是三分之二的門檻才可以這個開始 這個會議組成到開始評議所以 提高大法官人數的門檻這個並沒有違法 也沒有違憲在過去就是這麼做 而且實施了非常長的一段時間"},{"start":298.7,"end":324.558,"text":"今天這五位大法官真的很勇敢很有勇氣他創了舉世無雙的案例我們現在看到從來沒有一個什麼憲法法院的會出現有在大法官明顯不足的情況之下讓自己跳下來做判決而且還可以說這個拒絕評議拒絕參與評議的法官他們不合群"},{"start":325.379,"end":344.858,"text":"所以排除一級我們五個人自己做就好了接下來這五個大法官如果說有兩個人認為說我今天這個參與我也不想參與評議或是我持反對意見好沒關係我也排除像三個大法官然後過半數一個大法官就可以做成判決了我在這裡想要告訴大家的是"},{"start":350.95,"end":374.119,"text":"我們中華民國的憲法法庭真的是鬧了全世界最大的笑話做了最荒謬的事情我都不知道未來其他的憲法法院德國 日本 法國等等這些憲法法庭或他們的憲法委員會來台灣參訪的時候你們要怎麼去講這個事情丟臉至極好 請回 兩位請回"},{"start":377.008,"end":403.026,"text":"那麼今天吳斯堯委員在他質詢的時候又躍提 跳題然後在批評我們今天所提出的這個《政務人員法》草案還有批評我提的《公投法》的修法以及昨天才提案的修憲案有關於要恢復人民有權可以提案罷免總統"},{"start":405.427,"end":428.915,"text":"我時常懷疑就是 我們這群民進黨的委員們他們到底了不了解什麼叫權力分立立法委員的職權 他的功能在哪裡是要去制衡行政權 卻要去監督行政部門今天我們的立法院裡面 我們看到民進黨委員"},{"start":430.219,"end":451.753,"text":"他們不僅沒有好好的去監督行政院為什麼不依法編列預算為什麼不依法執行反而處處在包庇行政權這是我感到非常遺憾而且也不齒的地方到底誰不事任"},{"start":453.885,"end":468.552,"text":"大家看得很清楚啊 民進黨的委員到現在為止 他們有沒有針對我們的這個相關的法案有提出對岸行政機關也是消極 完全不提對岸好 那接下來我要請全序部還有考試院是"},{"start":477.915,"end":503.322,"text":"秘書長在你們的報告裡面也講得很清楚從民國84年立法院作出決議要求考試院要提出相關的政務人員法草案之後從87年到101年你們曾經五度提案108年的時候其實權敘部自己也有再提了一次案只是說到了考試院然後後來也許找了行政院一起會商之後就沒有再提出了"},{"start":504.785,"end":524.456,"text":"過去認為政務人員法的主管機關考試院很有GAS擔當下來依據憲法的規定就是由考試院可以來作為政務人員法的這個主管機關政務人員的退府條例也是你們定的是什麼原因造成你們現在的立場大轉彎"},{"start":527.07,"end":542.749,"text":"其實過去你講那個以前那一段立法院的決議是大概30年前民國84年蠻久一段時間以前那當時考試院應該是尊重立法院的這個決議所以就開始進行這個工作那108年呢"},{"start":544.691,"end":556.741,"text":"那108年的部分當然就是說我們內部在討論以前有這個提案後來沒有一直沒有審過那所以全區部這邊要不要續推這個工作那在院裡面討論的時候因為我們一定要徵求行政院的意見"},{"start":557.916,"end":567.798,"text":"那這個時候跟行政院這邊就開始出現選擇上的區分 請問一下當時行政院的意見是誰的意見當時代表是誰 行政院主要是人事總署人事總署當時人事長是誰 人事長是就是現在的市部長所以市部長你當時在108年的時候你反對權敘部的提案那你現在當權敘部長的時候你當然自然而然也反對這個提案"},{"start":578.642,"end":590.086,"text":"變成說整個政務人員法沒有辦法推進看起來關鍵也是在施部長您身上也不只這樣因為你從之前你就反對到現在你也反對好 那接下來請教一下我想請那個蘇人事長好 人事長那個施部長認為考試院不適合擔任政務人員法的主管機關所以人事總處要扛下這個責任嗎"},{"start":608.459,"end":624.464,"text":"事實上 施部長也不是說他不適合沒有 我現在只問你你要不要扛下這個責任因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為"},{"start":636.534,"end":660.112,"text":"這個法案大體說明的時候有講我們現在各行各業都有專法唯獨政務人員法沒有專法政務官掌握多少的行政資源擁有多大的權利他的行為竟然可以不受規範更何況在我本席所提的政務人員法草案裡面我不是只有去約束限制政務官的行為我甚至還保障他的權利這些難道不應該定嗎"},{"start":665.236,"end":689.127,"text":"今天權序部失職人事行政總處也是怠惰看到我們這些法案早就提出來了吳委員的法案吳宗憲委員的法案在今年的六月就已經審查過到現在為止你們沒有任何動作沒有提出任何的對案之後我們通過了然後你們又說這都是立法委員提的案然後你們再去申請釋憲嗎"},{"start":692.366,"end":705.636,"text":"我真的很看不下去現在我們行政機關的這樣一個態度尤其是考試院請你們回去想想當時五權分立的這個國父創立五權憲法對考試院有多大的期待"},{"start":711.377,"end":733.758,"text":"結果你們現在完全鬆手一攤 完全就是不管只管文官 事務官對於真正擁有權力的政務人員 你們卻擺爛各位很棒 條件憲法實現上的確設計還是作為文官法庭接下來我要再請教監察院的兩位部長可以請回 請教監察院的"},{"start":738.944,"end":768.184,"text":"請問現在公職人員利益衝突迴避法裡面誰是主管機關哪一個機關是主管機關公務人員利益衝突迴避法本院財產承包處是主政的機關財法負責財法簡單來說可能就是監察院跟法務部反正你們當時推來推去那麼現在的這個利益衝突法有沒有處罰 罰款的規定有有吧然後有沒有彈劾的規定可以送懲戒的規定"},{"start":769.355,"end":797.069,"text":"對 如果認為說有缺失有嗎 所以在一個法律裡面同時出現有行政法 有懲戒法這並不衝突嘛不過要跟委員報告就是說因為在執行的層面上面我們常常會主管機關的解釋跟我們在裁罰執行的時候常常會有一些爭議所以我們才會在書面意見表達說如果可以的話這個部分其實是由主管機關來負責行政調查之後做出裁罰這樣的可能權責相符會是比較好的"},{"start":798.542,"end":822.662,"text":"這個部分我們之後可以再討論但是我只是要講就是說是在現行的法規裡面並不是說沒有這樣子的一個情況好那最後我可能最後一個問題我想請教法務部有關於隨機殺人的問題因為今天其實在之前的委員都已經有提到了所以我在這裡我就不重複我現在只是想要請教法務部的就是說有關於隨機殺人"},{"start":825.756,"end":829.117,"text":"殺人罪我們殺人罪有多久沒有修了殺人罪最近有修增加那個虐殺幼童的那一部分"},{"start":846.397,"end":866.15,"text":"除了越炸越痛之外對於像這種隨機殺人的犯罪行為過去到現在法務部從來沒有研擬要怎麼樣來規範相關的犯罪行為嗎我們要不要修殺人罪或者是說在殘害人群自罪條例裡面是不是也應該要修法"},{"start":867.23,"end":888.242,"text":"這個有關你委員關心這個有殘害人群自罪條例有相關的規定那另外但是它有針對像這種只是因為它是個殘害人群它是針對特定的團體但是對於不特定的多數人呢它這部分其實可以用刑法五四七條來做良形的一個重要的所以只是良形但是回到我剛剛講的犯罪構成要件的部分其實也要檢討啊"},{"start":889.997,"end":916.612,"text":"我們看到德國法國等等這些國家他們其實對於殺人罪的犯罪構成要件甚至把這種對於不特定的多數人以危險的方式去殺害殺人的這樣的這個犯罪構成要件他們都寫定在明定在這個殺人罪裡面所以本席的建議就是說希望你們能夠去好好的研議檢討隨機殺人就無差別殺人要不要"},{"start":917.632,"end":944.808,"text":"定定獨立的犯罪的罪名或者是說我們現在修正殺人罪或者是殘害人群治罪條例裡面的部分的這些這個犯罪的這個犯罪過程要件其實是可以再去針對我們剛剛講的無差別殺人的這樣的行為類型去做更具體的規範我覺得我們法務部不要怠惰好不好你們每年的立法計畫"},{"start":946.87,"end":972.409,"text":"應該把這些都要納入我們看那個外國立法一直這麼規定的會期的立法計畫可以把這個相關的殺人罪還有剛剛講差案人權之罪條例等等的規定都可以併入考量積極的去提出相關的這個修法不要每次都是跑在我們立法委員後面好嗎我們作為那個請你們要去進行檢討是好 以上謝謝好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:06.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:44:06.806000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:07.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:44:10.177000+08:00","text":"首先有請司法院的李廳長，還有書記廳的廳長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:10.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:44:20.319000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:20.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:44:20.779000+08:00","text":"李廳長好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:22.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:44:41.664000+08:00","text":"這次大法官做出5人判決，我想也引起了全社會的譁然，首先我想請教，廳長，你之前本來就是刑事庭的法官，我想請問一下，一般你們在合議庭裡面，如果法官有人拒絕評議的時候，你們會怎麼處理？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:44.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:44:46.993000+08:00","text":"根據我們的經驗，沒有發生這樣的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:47.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:44:51.296000+08:00","text":"如果有人拒絕評議，你們會怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:51.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:44:53.797000+08:00","text":"案子會一直擱著嘛，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:44:55.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:02.562000+08:00","text":"案子會被擱著，等到有法官或者是再換另外一個法官加入評議，你們才會開始審議？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:05.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:07.648000+08:00","text":"我們一直沒有這樣的經驗，所以我也沒辦法……","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:07.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:09.328000+08:00","text":"從來沒有過這樣的經驗？是。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:09.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:10.208000+08:00","text":"民庭法官也沒有？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:13.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:13.369000+08:00","text":"應該是沒有。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:13.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:15.789000+08:00","text":"您是民庭法官嗎？廳長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"許廳長碧惠","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:15.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:25.532000+08:00","text":"我之前是辦理民事事務，也跟委員說明，在我的審判經驗中，我沒有遇過合議庭的法官拒絕參與評議的情形。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:25.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:29.593000+08:00","text":"所以你們的規則裡面沒有規定如果法官拒絕評議時如何處理嗎？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"許廳長碧惠","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:40.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:45:55.946000+08:00","text":"委員，因為一般法院的法官員額會比較充裕，假設，我說假設，如果真的遇到有法官持續拒絕參與評議，可能在必要的情形下會去變動相關的事務分配，或者是依照代理表的方式……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:45:57.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:01.947000+08:00","text":"換句話說，就是換別的法官來參與評議，對不對？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:01.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:13.750000+08:00","text":"也就是你們還是要達到全部的法官都要一起參與評議才可以做成判決，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:13.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:15.051000+08:00","text":"按照你們現在司法實務的做法不就是這樣嗎？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"許廳長碧惠","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:17.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:18.788000+08:00","text":"委員，在一般的法院……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:18.788000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:20.469000+08:00","text":"對，在合議庭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許廳長碧惠","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:20.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:30.878000+08:00","text":"法官員額充足的情形，但是憲法法庭沒有這樣的狀況，憲法法庭的大法官沒有其他……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:30.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:31.899000+08:00","text":"大法官15個人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許廳長碧惠","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:31.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:32.800000+08:00","text":"沒有代理的問題。是啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:32.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:32.920000+08:00","text":"沒有代理，所以要怎麼樣？","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:33.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:34.362000+08:00","text":"是不是要等到補足了之後才開始審議嘛！","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:34.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:46:58.672000+08:00","text":"這是再簡單不過的道理，今天5位大法官做出的判決就是明顯違反不管是舊制或新制的憲訴法規定，就是一個違法的組成，然後又做成了判決。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:46:58.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:07.740000+08:00","text":"請問兩位法官，如果在一般的司法實務上，裁判如果違反法定的組織程序，這個裁判是怎麼樣？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:07.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:08.701000+08:00","text":"是不是自始當然無效？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:11.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:12.192000+08:00","text":"我們就講一般的法理。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:12.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:17.375000+08:00","text":"如果是在一般法院的部分是不會發生這樣的事情。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:17.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:19.495000+08:00","text":"沒有，如果發生了呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:19.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:20.576000+08:00","text":"如果發生了，這叫組織不合法的問題。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:20.576000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:21.576000+08:00","text":"好，在組織不合法的情況之下呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:21.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:23.697000+08:00","text":"可能就被上訴審撤銷掉了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:27.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:29.065000+08:00","text":"所以撤銷就代表什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:29.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:30.206000+08:00","text":"還是違法嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:31.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:31.446000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:31.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:33.207000+08:00","text":"違法無效的判決才會被撤銷。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:33.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:35.889000+08:00","text":"會因為組織不合法而被撤銷。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:35.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:37.770000+08:00","text":"對，因為組織不合法而被撤銷。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:38.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:44.873000+08:00","text":"接下來，我想請問針對大法官組織不合法所做成的判決，誰來約束、誰來制衡違憲、違法的大法官？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:44.873000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:45.873000+08:00","text":"現在我們有沒有這個機制？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:45.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:46.835000+08:00","text":"這個部分可能我們不太適合回答，這個是憲法法庭的獨立運作，可能我們司法行政……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:46.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:47:47.095000+08:00","text":"現在我們有沒有這個規定嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:47:59.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:48:01.192000+08:00","text":"憲法訴訟法裡面有沒有這樣的規定？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:48:03.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:48:09.636000+08:00","text":"針對違法、違憲的大法官違反組織法定程序所做出來的判決，我們現在有沒有任何救濟的程序？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"許廳長碧惠","start":"2025-12-31T11:48:10.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:48:18.120000+08:00","text":"翁委員，我想跟您說明，現在沒有一個大法官解釋或是憲法法庭的判決是組織不合法。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:48:18.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:48:28.405000+08:00","text":"好，很好，所以從我們行憲，大法官會議組成以來到現在，從來沒有出現過任何一例的5人判決，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:48:30.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:48:31.090000+08:00","text":"我沒說錯吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:48:32.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:48:45.258000+08:00","text":"從來沒有過，過去大法官會議甚至還要達到四分之三或是三分之二的門檻才可以組成會議，開始評議，所以提高大法官人數的門檻，這個並沒有違法，也沒有違憲，在過去就是這麼做，而且實施了非常長的一段時間。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:49:00.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:49:46.458000+08:00","text":"今天這5位大法官真的很勇敢、很有勇氣，創了舉世無雙的案例，我們現在看到從來沒有一個憲法法院會出現在大法官明顯不足額的情況之下，自己跳下來做判決，而且還可以說拒絕參與評議的法官他們不合群，所以排除異己，我們5個人自己做就好了，接下來這5個大法官如果有兩個人認為今天也不想參與評議，或是持反對意見，沒關係，也排除，剩下3個大法官，然後過半數，1個大法官就可以做成判決了。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:49:46.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:50:13.278000+08:00","text":"我在這裡想要告訴大家的是，中華民國的憲法法庭真的是鬧了全世界最大的笑話、做了最荒謬的事情，我都不知道未來其他的憲法法院，德國、日本、法國等等這些憲法法庭或是他們的憲法委員會來臺灣參訪的時候，你們要怎麼去講這個事情？","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:50:14.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:50:15.658000+08:00","text":"丟臉至極！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:50:16.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:50:16.099000+08:00","text":"兩位請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:50:19.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:50:45.026000+08:00","text":"今天吳思瑤委員在質詢的時候又跳題，批評我們今天所提出的政務人員法草案，還有批評我提的公投法修法，以及昨天才提案的修憲案，有關於要恢復人民有權可以提案罷免總統。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:50:47.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:51:00.651000+08:00","text":"我時常懷疑這群民進黨的委員們到底瞭不瞭解什麼叫權力分立，立法委員職權的功能在哪裡？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:51:00.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:51:06.233000+08:00","text":"是要去制衡行政權、要去監督行政部門。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:51:06.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:51:46.810000+08:00","text":"今天立法院裡面，我們看到民進黨的委員們不僅沒有好好地監督行政院為什麼不依法編列預算、為什麼不依法執行，反而處處在包庇行政權，這是我感到非常遺憾而且也不齒的地方，到底誰不適任，大家看得很清楚，民進黨的委員到現在為止有沒有針對我們相關的法案有提出對案，行政機關也是消極，完全不提對案。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:51:47.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:51:50.352000+08:00","text":"接下來我要請銓敘部，還有考試院。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-12-31T11:51:50.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:51:59.915000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:51:59.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:52:25.302000+08:00","text":"秘書長，在你們的報告裡面也講得很清楚，從民國84年立法院作出決議，要求考試院要提出相關的政務人員法草案之後，從87年到101年你們曾經5度提案，108年的時候，其實銓敘部自己有再提了一次案，只是到了考試院，後來也許找了行政院一起會商之後，就沒有再提出了。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:52:26.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:52:46.456000+08:00","text":"過去認為政務人員法的主管機關考試院很有guts擔當下來，依據憲法的規定，考試院可以作為政務人員法的主管機關，政務人員退撫條例也是你們定的，什麼原因造成你們現在的立場大轉彎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-12-31T11:52:50.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:04.729000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，您講以前那段，立法院的決議大概是30年前，民國84年，是滿久一段時間以前，當時考試院應該是尊重立法院的決議，所以開始進行這個工作，後面因為……108年呢？","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:07.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:21.877000+08:00","text":"108年的部分，我們內部在討論以前有這個提案，後來一直沒有審過，所以銓敘部要不要續推這個工作，在院裡面討論的時候，因為我們一定要徵求行政院的意見，這個時候跟行政院就開始出現權責上的區分……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:21.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:24.117000+08:00","text":"請問一下當時行政院的意見是誰的意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:24.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:24.677000+08:00","text":"當時的代表是誰？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:24.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:25.777000+08:00","text":"主要是人事總處。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:26.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:26.738000+08:00","text":"當時人事長是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:26.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:27.278000+08:00","text":"人事長就是現在的施部長。是我。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:27.278000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:28.278000+08:00","text":"施部長嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:27.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:44.924000+08:00","text":"所以施部長你當時在108年的時候，你是反對銓敘部的提案，你現在當銓敘部部長，當然自然而然也反對這個提案，變成整個政務人員法沒有辦法推進，看起來關鍵也是在施部長您身上。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:45.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:46.184000+08:00","text":"也不只是這樣。因為……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:46.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:48.725000+08:00","text":"因為你從之前就反對，到現在你也反對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:49.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:50.206000+08:00","text":"接下來，我想請蘇人事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:50.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:50.206000+08:00","text":"召委好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:53:50.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:53:52.086000+08:00","text":"人事長，施部長認為考試院不適合擔任政務人員法的主管機關，所以人事總處要扛下這個責任嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-12-31T11:54:10.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:54:13.180000+08:00","text":"事實上施部長也不是說他不適合。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:54:13.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:54:15.601000+08:00","text":"沒有，我現在只問你，你要不要扛下這個責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:54:15.601000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:54:23.245333+08:00","text":"人事行政總處願不願意擔任政務人員法的主管機關？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-12-31T11:54:23.245333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:54:30.889667+08:00","text":"我們一切尊重大院的決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:54:30.889667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:54:38.534000+08:00","text":"很好，謝謝人事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:54:38.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:55:02.112000+08:00","text":"本席要強調的是，這個法勢在必行，我們現在有3個委員分別提出來了，就像我剛剛一開始在法案大體說明的時候有講，現在各行各業都有專法，唯獨政務人員法沒有專法，政務官掌握多少行政資源，擁有多大的權力，他的行為竟然可以不受規範，更何況在本席所提的政務人員法草案裡面，我不是只有去約束、限制政務官的行為，我甚至還保障他的權利，這些難道不應該定嗎？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:55:07.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:55:31.127000+08:00","text":"今天銓敘部失職，人事行政總處也怠惰，看到我們這些法案早就提出來了，吳宗憲委員的法案在今年6月就已經審查過了，到現在為止，你們沒有任何動作，沒有提出任何的對案，之後我們通過了，然後你們又說這都是立法委員提的案，你們再去聲請釋憲嗎？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:55:34.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:04.627000+08:00","text":"我真的很看不下去現在行政機關這樣的態度，尤其是考試院，請你們回去想想，當時國父創立五權憲法、五權分立的制度，對考試院有多大的期待，結果你們現在雙手一攤，完全就是不管，只管文官、事務官，對於真正擁有權力的政務人員，你們卻擺爛。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:06.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:08.971000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，考試院在憲法的職權上，的確是設計來作為文官法制的主管機關。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:09.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:13.716000+08:00","text":"接下來我要再請教監察院，兩位部長可以請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:14.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:27.068000+08:00","text":"請教監察院，請問現在公職人員利益衝突迴避法裡面，誰是主管機關、哪一個機關是主管機關？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃處長奕元","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:32.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:35.794000+08:00","text":"本院的財產申報處是主政的機關負責裁罰。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:36.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:38.216000+08:00","text":"簡單來說，可能就是監察院跟法務部……是。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:38.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:39.577000+08:00","text":"反正你們當時推來推去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:40.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:45.501000+08:00","text":"好，現在的利益衝突法有沒有處罰罰鍰的規定？有。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:47.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:50.164000+08:00","text":"有沒有彈劾的規定、可以送懲戒的規定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃處長奕元","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:51.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:52.736000+08:00","text":"對，如果認為說有缺失的話。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:52.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:56:58.359000+08:00","text":"有嘛，所以在一個法律裡面同時出現有行政罰、有懲戒罰，這並不衝突嘛！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"黃處長奕元","start":"2025-12-31T11:56:58.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:57:19.049000+08:00","text":"不過要跟委員報告，在執行的層面上，主管機關的解釋跟我們在裁罰執行的時候常常會有一些爭議，所以我們才會在書面意見表達，如果可以的話，這個部分其實是由主管機關來負責行政調查之後，作出裁罰，這樣權責相符可能會是比較好的。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:57:20.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:57:27.728000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們之後可以再討論，但是我要講的就是在現行的法規裡面，並不是說沒有這樣的情況。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:57:29.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:57:44.642000+08:00","text":"最後一個問題，我想請教法務部，有關於隨機殺人的問題，因為今天其實之前的委員都已經有提到，所以我在這裡就不重複，我現在只是想要請教法務部，有關於隨機殺人的犯罪行為，在我們現行法上面是依據什麼樣的法律來處理？","quality":0.734},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-12-31T11:57:44.642000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T11:57:47.756000+08:00","text":"殺人罪。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:57:47.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:57:49.237000+08:00","text":"只是殺人罪，我們的殺人罪有多久沒有修了？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-12-31T11:57:49.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:57:51.097000+08:00","text":"殺人罪最近有修，增加虐殺幼童的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:58:08.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:58:19.424000+08:00","text":"除了虐殺幼童之外，對於像這種隨機殺人的犯罪行為，過去到現在，法務部從來沒有研擬要怎麼樣來規範相關的犯罪行為嗎？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:58:19.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:58:21.986000+08:00","text":"我們要不要修殺人罪？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:58:22.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:58:28.130000+08:00","text":"或者是在殘害人群治罪條例裡面是不是也應該要修法？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-12-31T11:58:29.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:58:33.693000+08:00","text":"有關委員關心的這部分，在殘害人群治罪條例有相關的規定，另外……","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:58:33.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:58:41.237000+08:00","text":"但是殘害人群是針對特定的團體，對於不特定的多數人呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-12-31T11:58:42.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:58:46.080000+08:00","text":"這部分其實可以用刑法第五十七條作為量刑的重要的……","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:58:46.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:59:09.947000+08:00","text":"所以只是量刑，但是回到我剛剛講的，犯罪構成要件的部分其實也要檢討啊，我們看到德國、法國等等這些國家，他們其實對於殺人罪的犯罪構成要件，甚至把這種對於不特定的多數人以危險的方式去殺害、殺人的犯罪構成要件，都明定在殺人罪裡面。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:59:10.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:59:16.791000+08:00","text":"所以本席的建議就是，希望你們能夠好好地研議、檢討……是。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:59:16.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:59:45.247000+08:00","text":"隨機殺人也就是無差別殺人要不要訂定獨立的犯罪罪名，或者是我們現在修正殺人罪或是殘害人群治罪條例裡面的犯罪構成要件，其實是可以再去針對我們剛剛講的無差別殺人這樣的行為類型去做更具體的規範，我覺得法務部不要怠惰，好不好？是。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:59:45.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:59:49.810000+08:00","text":"你們每年的立法計畫應該要把這些都納入……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-12-31T11:59:51.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T11:59:52.693000+08:00","text":"我們來看外國立法例是怎麼規定的。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T11:59:52.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T12:00:10.786000+08:00","text":"本席期待看到你們下個會期的立法計畫可以把相關的殺人罪，還有剛剛講的殘害人群治罪條例等等規定都可以併入考量，積極提出相關的修法，不要每次都是跑在我們立法委員後面，好嗎？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-12-31T12:00:10.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T12:00:11.006000+08:00","text":"我們來做評估。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T12:00:12.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T12:00:13.008000+08:00","text":"請你們要進行檢討。是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-12-31T12:00:14.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-12-31T12:00:14.389000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-12-31T12:00:14.889000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T12:00:16.889000+08:00","text":"謝謝翁曉玲委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）","start":"2025-12-31T12:00:17.189000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T12:00:27.474714+08:00","text":"我們先處理會議時間，上午會議時間就繼續進行到所有登記發言委員都詢答結束為止。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）","start":"2025-12-31T12:00:27.774714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-12-31T12:00:31.489000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請王鴻薇委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}