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上午會議時間就繼續進行到所有的登記發言委員詢答結束為止那麼今天的其他案子呢我們就再會定期討論好 那接下來請洪孟凱委員好 麻煩我們請考試院劉秘書長那以及我們內政部好不好 內政部"},{"start":28.478,"end":35.438,"text":"應該是警政署跟人事處好不好麻煩來 秘書長是我想請教一下就是說"},{"start":36.757,"end":63.44,"text":"剛剛鄭天才委員以及我們幾位委員其實之前都已經講過說現在年金停侃的部分其實它是停侃過去已經執行了差不多六年七年的時間也有往下降的一個趨勢那當初在2017年的時候的立法過程裡面您剛剛也特別提到就是說有分三個版本至少我們了解的三個版本考試院有提出一個版本年金改革小組也有提出一個版本以及到最後民進黨團也有提出版本"},{"start":63.9,"end":86.001,"text":"那以這三個版本來講是考試院版本的這個降低是最少的是不是對 考試院版本當然有一個過程選舉部本來是依照年改會的版本提出到考試院之後 但是到最後通過的到最後通過的是立法院通過的是民進黨團的版本不完全是啦而且那個 其實當然還有委員的修正版也不是民進黨團版而已"},{"start":86.161,"end":112.779,"text":"但確實就是大家會覺得是說那個時候通過的是粗糙而且是到最後是大砍的一個部分嘛也因此我們現在才會講是說但是大砍大砍是事實啊也因此現在才講是說時代變遷條件以及物價整個上漲的部分那該調整也調整了年金改革沒有人反對但重點在於是說能不能合理永續的讓大家都可以有一個最基本的保障嗎那我想請教一下來重點在這邊"},{"start":113.66,"end":114.202,"text":"重點在於是說現在我有看你們的那個"},{"start":117.393,"end":143.801,"text":"報告裡面有講是說已經有跟憲法法庭提出釋憲跟暫時處分的申請了是 上禮拜四那目前現在的進度是什麼那就是遞件了那遞件會不會受理那個就是看他們的速度好 那我想請教一下那中華民國我們有相關法令的規定嘛那如果說在任何的機關或是申請人申請譬如說暫時處分或是說釋憲的部分的話那還沒有裁定之前是不是應該依法行政"},{"start":145.53,"end":153.559,"text":"我們現在退服法的修正部分我們也一方面事先另外一方面我們也會來進行審定的工作"},{"start":154.761,"end":176.708,"text":"是啊 所以說是不是應該現在三讀通過法令總統已經公告了是不是就應該要執行就應該要執行啊那到目前為止還是原用舊的這個制度是什麼回事這是因為執行需要時間那就重新核算的需要多少時間我們講說大概六個月的時間這不是技術性拖延跟技術性配合嗎以賴清德總統講說台灣是AI"},{"start":180.709,"end":197.298,"text":"我們是AI之島我們是高科技對 但過去到現在我們難道你說一般的民間企業一般的這個銀行要調整馬上就可以調整但是考試院到目前為止居然提出來是說用技術性杯葛六個月的一個時間不覺得這樣子其實很荒謬的事情嗎"},{"start":200.66,"end":217.71,"text":"城市如果設計出來了城市如果修正了電腦跑起來會很快但是修正城市有程序也需要時間那個是人要去做的事情就是因為就是要人做的事情所以說你們現在的積極與否以及消極的態度就讓全國的軍公教看在眼裡嗎"},{"start":218.99,"end":232.735,"text":"現在不就是變成是說應該是要幫全國的公教人員來捍衛權益的考試院反而是用行政部門的一種行政怠惰來去做延緩不覺得這樣子其實很荒謬的事情嗎現在又在勤勒考試院 考試院秘書長你不需要勤勒我要先告訴"},{"start":242.498,"end":256.255,"text":"告訴你的部分是應該要執行要執行而你現在用這種行政怠惰的一個說法其實是說不過去絕對沒有怠惰其實不是講完就會直接做出來沒有這樣你的態度全國的公教人員都看在眼裡那我想請教一下內政部內政部"},{"start":260.56,"end":277.676,"text":"那我們今天有討論到還有剛考試院秘書長講說要半年的時間這種行政怠惰是全國人大家都聽不下去但另外一個部分是我們有通過這個警察人士條例35條的部分那今天的報告本席也看到是說也針對了"},{"start":281.987,"end":311.008,"text":"這個警察人士條例修正後增加的退休所得差額部分依行政院申請釋憲跟暫時處分的結果來辦理那本部配合辦理那我想請教一下現在行政院送釋憲跟暫時處分的狀態是什麼據了解應該行政院已經送出了那後續可能就要等司法院大法官這邊的後續處理是啊 那在還沒有判還沒有任何的裁決之前我們是不是應該要依法行政"},{"start":312.077,"end":332.678,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我想請教一下內政部在等什麼可以自己決定是說想要執行的法令就執行不想執行的法令就不執行我們還是要依據行政院的最後的指示來處理行政院是算是中華民國最高的行政機關但他也要依法行政"},{"start":333.584,"end":354.6,"text":"那我現在想請教的是說你的狀態你剛剛也講很清楚啊考試院剛剛秘務長講了啊送釋憲跟送暫時處分啊但是到目前為止還沒有裁示啊那如果說還沒有裁決之前是不是就應該要依總統公告過後的法令三讀通過法令來做執行那一樣到底內政部警察人士退休條例什麼時候通過的"},{"start":355.74,"end":374.031,"text":"去年的4月27號 去年的4月到現在也超過8個月了如果說以秘書長剛剛那麼偉大的講法要6個月的時間來調整那你內政部也調整完啦那你到今年你還是沒有給我們警察人士條例應該要依照新法的部分 什麼原因"},{"start":375.356,"end":391.925,"text":"有關審定的部分我們的確在去年年底已經跟群聚部合作那群聚部這邊也都全部轉交到我們退休的警察人員的手上所以就審定的部分的確是已經依法完成了那但是因為後續這個那你沒有執行啊"},{"start":393.126,"end":407.78,"text":"現在我們面對到每一個警察同仁我也常講喔我說不管是年金不管是相關的部分改革我們一起支持努力但本席更重要的就是只有八個字原則保障現職照顧退休"},{"start":408.661,"end":433.237,"text":"那到現在你們講差額的部分還是沒有執行啊你自己的報告寫說依行政院申請釋憲及暫時處分結果辦理本部配合辦理什麼時候內政部也好什麼時候我們的行政部門也好是可以配合行政院然後不依法行政行政院比法律大是這樣嗎行政院比法律大"},{"start":434.482,"end":457.419,"text":"然後你後面 我覺得更讓本席沒有辦法接受的是後面還多加一段本部為警察人員主管機關上來重視警察消防等人員權益還用粗體黑字有點噁心啊一方面講說重視警察消防人員權益另外一方面配合行政院打假球"},{"start":458.935,"end":487.247,"text":"8個月過去了 然後現在在等行政院說送釋憲跟暫時處分好嘛 送釋憲跟暫時處分現在暫時處分了沒 還沒嘛那如果說現在暫時處分還沒的話內政部門 內政部 行政機關憑什麼不依法辦理我們法令可以這樣子自己解釋嗎我一個申請人 我現在申請說我暫時處分我不要納稅 我要釋憲不要納稅那我送出那一刻我就可以不繳稅"},{"start":490.463,"end":505.551,"text":"暫時處分是這樣用的嗎不是嘛那只有你們今天的報告還可以直接寫白紙黑字依行政院釋憲跟暫時處分那這就是依法無據啊跟我有報告 基本上行政議題所以行政院 行政議題"},{"start":520.532,"end":547.461,"text":"行政一體大過法律那叫獨裁國家行政一體你敢說我還不敢講那叫獨裁國家獨裁國家才會行政一個人說了算總統一個人說了算大家不用看法律反正總統想怎麼樣就怎麼樣警察的退休的待遇消防退休的待遇海巡退休的待遇放著沒關係"},{"start":549.397,"end":567.437,"text":"因為這個不是執政黨提出來的案所以說他就可以擱著來抱歉主席一分鐘的時間我是不是請一下那個刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心主任張主任好不好來我們官員請回來張主任麻煩一下"},{"start":576.041,"end":602.201,"text":"主任本席過去到現在一直很關心炸機的打炸的一個成效那我想請教因為每天的打炸儀表板本席都有看這個數字我不是要隨堂抽考你放心10月60億金額被詐騙11月59.8億被詐騙但12月上升了66億這都是打炸儀表板的數字本席幾乎每天都會去關注"},{"start":602.901,"end":623.369,"text":"等於是平均一天差不多2億多被詐騙那我想請教我們目前掌握的狀況10月 11月本席那個時候也提醒過就是說它看起來有一個天花板就是60億你真的要降不容易降就代表是說詐騙還是很猖獗你即便是宣導了165反詐騙等等的但是它有一個天花板"},{"start":623.729,"end":652.521,"text":"但到12月突然又往上了變66億有沒有什麼樣的一個情緒或說你觀察到的樣態是什麼樣的樣態還是持續讓國人有被詐騙的一個風險或狀況鮑委員因為這個詐騙的問題它其實真的是很複雜如果說依照歷年這個20幾年來它詐騙的一個發展的趨勢其實它通常到年底到隔年的1月過年前通常會是一個其實過年前比較高峰對 會比較高峰就第一個"},{"start":652.881,"end":679.812,"text":"第二個就是說其實在各項政策推動其中像推動最大的一個潛在被害人部分因為我們激發讓這些長期遭到詐騙的被害人提早出來報案所以這個也會造成可能數據會提早出來那另外一個就是我們也沒辦法做一個明確的定論就是說也有可能是因為但這個是沒辦法去證實就是說也有可能是因為太監打仗的原因包括緬甸"},{"start":681.152,"end":698.439,"text":"在好像前天跟昨天都有發布說他們當然我們沒辦法證實說這個是不是有在做是真實的那最主要就是說他可能今天炸毀了園區以後那這個會造成還在持續招詐的被害人因為他就提早清醒了因為沒有聯繫等於說"},{"start":700.02,"end":711.273,"text":"騙他的詐騙人他就沒辦法跟他們聯絡了所以他們就發現他們已經被騙了所以這幾個原因都是很有可能導致12月結果他的一個遭詐的財損就往上了"},{"start":712.505,"end":739.534,"text":"等於說會比11月的59.9億來得多6億多所以其實我們也還在觀察看看1月份目前的狀況因為1月份目前的狀況平均大概每天看起來大概也是1億多到2億多主任如果說在你這樣講的話我很尊重專業因為我覺得打詐是大家要一起來不分草野藍綠但是如果說在你這樣講的話那其實詐騙的歪風惡行並沒有因為"},{"start":740.441,"end":758.714,"text":"我們的這個強力的打仗而有所降低啊你今天的一個數字的提升因為為什麼 數字很重要因為它是很科學的東西它起來就起來 它下降就下降那本席的講師如果說你講師說是因為被破獲所以提前犯罪被害者來去做報案的話那過去這幾個月"},{"start":760.675,"end":787.923,"text":"民進黨政府一直在那邊跟我們強調或洗腦講說打詐有成效的都往下了錯了那根本就是蓋牌啊那就是之前蓋牌了那只是被害者還沒有報案沒想到因為破獲了首腦之後一掀開蟑螂跑出來了建議可以從6月看到12月因為他要看一個趨勢我有看到那趨勢是往下嘛但12月就往上嘛那再來主任是"},{"start":788.743,"end":810.864,"text":"你那個趨勢啊 我本時很實在話講如果你今天是一天只剩200件100件一天只剩幾十萬被詐騙那我會跟你鼓勵啊但如果說一天還是有兩億多被詐騙一天還是一個月還是有一萬多件的時候你要我跟你講是說哇 現在我們成效好棒抱歉我做不下去啊"},{"start":811.525,"end":820.663,"text":"因為一個月一萬多件代表一個一萬多個破碎的家庭兩億多一天我們去年被詐騙金額多少2025年"},{"start":822.844,"end":848.187,"text":"本席幫你算了將近900億891億全年2025年一整年我們台灣被騙了891億而這是打在儀表板上的數字還有多少沒報案的不知道還有多少花小錢被炸小錢想說算了我買一個教訓的不知道但光打炸儀表板上面的數字就891億"},{"start":849.568,"end":875.229,"text":"所以本期是要提出來我一個誠摯的建議跟呼籲好好做事而且看那個數字去分析了解到底案情在哪邊還有哪一些新型態的詐騙最後本期提醒一下因為社群媒體平台最近也有在有一個詐騙是很老手法可是還是有很多人就是他故意說用送什麼東西我家有多的什麼"},{"start":875.885,"end":898.632,"text":"那個咖啡店的新的城市杯好多我要免費贈送我有 是 很多在推跟IG我們我們的注意事有什麼那個什麼吊牌好多我要贈送甚至還利用我們台灣人的愛心說我台灣的這個行李牌很漂亮要贈送結果人家真的跟他聯繫之後原來他是一個詐騙後面的手法"},{"start":899.332,"end":913.292,"text":"也許不是全部都是但是在翠上面在IG上面有很多這樣的一個手法而網路的討論也很多我們繼續再搜報是 知道再麻煩你再進行一點作為好不好是 謝謝謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:02:02.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:02:21.885000+08:00","text":"好，麻煩請考試院劉秘書長以及內政部警政署跟人事處。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:02:21.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:02:21.885000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:02:23.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:02:39.147000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我想請教一下，鄭天財委員以及幾位委員之前都已經講過現在年金停砍的部分其實是「停砍」，過去已經執行了差不多六、七年的時間，也有往下降的趨勢。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:02:39.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:02:59.464000+08:00","text":"當初在2017年的立法過程裡面，您剛剛也特別提到，就是有分三個版本，至少據我們了解是有三個版本，考試院有提出一個版本，年金改革小組也有提出一個版本，到最後民進黨黨團也有提出版本，以這三個版本來講，考試院這個版本的降低是最少的，是不是？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:01.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:06.231000+08:00","text":"對，考試院的版本當然有一個過程，銓敘部本來是依照年改會的版本，在提出到考試院之後有做了一些修改。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:06.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:11.195000+08:00","text":"但是最後立法院通過的是民進黨黨團的版本？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:11.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:16.981000+08:00","text":"不完全是，其實當然還有委員的修正版，也不是民進黨黨團版而已。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:17.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:25.266000+08:00","text":"但是大家確實會覺得那個時候通過的很粗糙，而且到最後是大砍，也因此我們現在才會講說……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:25.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:26.266000+08:00","text":"沒有到粗糙，因為花了很久的時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:25.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:40.937000+08:00","text":"但是大砍是事實，也因此我們現在才說因為時代變遷、條件以及物價整個上漲的關係，該調整的也調整了，年金改革沒有人反對，但重點是在於能不能合理、永續地讓大家都可以有一個最基本的保障。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:40.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:41.937000+08:00","text":"現在的問題就是它變得比較……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:41.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:53.054000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，我也看到你們的報告裡面寫已經有向憲法法庭提出釋憲跟暫時處分的聲請了。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:53.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:54.035000+08:00","text":"是，在上禮拜四。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:54.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:03:56.575000+08:00","text":"那現在的進度是怎麼樣？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:03:56.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:01.537000+08:00","text":"就是遞件了，遞件了之後會不會受理，那就是看他們的速度。好。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:01.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:14.781000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，中華民國有相關法令的規定嘛，如果任何機關或是聲請人聲請譬如暫時處分或是釋憲，在還沒有裁定之前，是不是應該依法行政？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:17.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:24.539000+08:00","text":"現在退撫法的修正部分，我們一方面釋憲，另外一方面我們也會來進行審定的工作。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:25.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:30.983000+08:00","text":"是啊，所以現在法令三讀通過，總統已經公告了，是不是就應該要執行？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:30.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:31.983000+08:00","text":"我們就依照法令處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:31.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:37.024000+08:00","text":"就應該要執行啊，到目前為止還是援用舊的制度，是怎麼回事？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:38.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:41.166000+08:00","text":"這是因為執行需要時間，就重新核算的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:41.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:42.386000+08:00","text":"需要多少時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:42.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:44.467000+08:00","text":"我們講大概就6個月的時間。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:44.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:46.267000+08:00","text":"這不是技術性拖延跟技術性杯葛？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:46.267000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:47.267000+08:00","text":"這沒有技術性拖延，事情不會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:46.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:53.930000+08:00","text":"賴清德總統講說臺灣是AI之島，我們是AI之島、我們是高科技……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:53.930000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:04:55.451000+08:00","text":"訓練AI都要時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:04:55.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:07.758000+08:00","text":"對，但是過去到現在，我們難道……一般的民間企業、一般的銀行，要調整馬上就可以調整，但是考試院到目前為止居然提出來是說用技術性杯葛，6個月的時間……","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:07.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:08.758000+08:00","text":"因為法案生效之後，要重新調整程式嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:07.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:08.298000+08:00","text":"不覺得這樣子其實是很荒謬的事情嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:12.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:20.885000+08:00","text":"程式如果設計出來了，程式如果修正了，電腦跑起來會很快，但是修正程式有程序，也需要時間，那是人要去做的事情。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:21.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:28.710000+08:00","text":"就是因為是人要做的事情，所以你們現在的積極與否以及消極的態度，就讓全國的軍公教看在眼裡嘛！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:28.710000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:29.990000+08:00","text":"委員，這樣講好了，107年年改後，我們花了9個月的時間重新核算，歷史的經驗都是如此……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:29.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:42.594000+08:00","text":"現在不就變成是，應該要幫全國的公教人員捍衛權利的考試院，反而是用行政部門的行政怠惰來做延緩，不覺得這樣子其實是很荒謬的事情嗎……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:42.594000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:43.594000+08:00","text":"現在的公務同仁，他們會不會過勞、他們需要多少時間去執行……","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:42.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:43.615000+08:00","text":"現在又情勒，考試院秘書長，你不需要情勒……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:43.615000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:44.615000+08:00","text":"就這件事情，也不能把壓力壓在他們身上，因為實際上不是我在執行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:43.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:55.941000+08:00","text":"我要先告訴你的部分是，應該執行的要執行……是啊。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:05:56.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:05:59.866000+08:00","text":"你現在用這種行政怠惰的說法，其實是說不過去的。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-01-12T12:06:00.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:06:03.110000+08:00","text":"絕對沒有怠惰，事情不是講完就可以直接做出來。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:06:03.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:06:06.074000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題，秘書長，你的態度，全國的公教人員都看在眼裡。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:06:06.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:06:19.547000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下內政部，我們今天有討論到，還有剛剛考試院秘書長講要半年的時間，這種行政怠惰是全國人民大家都聽不下去的。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:06:19.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:06:24.612000+08:00","text":"但另外一個部分是我們有通過警察人員人事條例第三十五條。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:06:25.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:06:43.194000+08:00","text":"就今天的報告，本席也看到，針對警察人員人事條例修正後增加之退休所得差額部分，依行政院聲請釋憲跟暫時處分結果辦理，本部配合辦理。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:06:43.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:06:50.760000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，現在行政院提釋憲跟暫時處分的狀態是什麼？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳處長慧嬪","start":"2026-01-12T12:06:50.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:06:56.884000+08:00","text":"據了解，行政院應該已經送出了，後續可能就要等司法院大法官後續處理。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:06:57.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:01.988000+08:00","text":"是啊，在還沒有任何裁決之前，我們是不是應該要依法行政？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長慧嬪","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:03.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:04.178000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，基本上……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:04.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:07.782000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，內政部在等什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:07.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:11.766000+08:00","text":"可以自己決定想要執行的法令就執行，不想執行的法令就不執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長慧嬪","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:14.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:17.632000+08:00","text":"我們還是要依據行政院最後的指示處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:18.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:23.658000+08:00","text":"不是，行政院算是中華民國最高的行政機關，但它也要依法行政。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:24.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:41.136000+08:00","text":"我現在想請教的是你的狀態，你剛剛也講得很清楚，考試院秘書長剛剛講了，送釋憲跟送暫時處分，但是到目前為止還沒有裁示，還沒有裁決之前，是不是就應該要依總統公告三讀通過的法令執行？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:41.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:45.580000+08:00","text":"一樣的道理，警察人員人事條例什麼時候通過的？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳處長慧嬪","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:46.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:07:48.361000+08:00","text":"去年的4月27號。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:07:48.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:08:05.011000+08:00","text":"去年的4月，到現在也超過8個月了，如果以秘書長剛剛那麼偉大的講法，要6個月的時間來調整，那內政部也應該調整完了，但你到今年還是沒有給我們警察人員人事條例應該要依照新法的部分，是什麼原因？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"陳處長慧嬪","start":"2026-01-12T12:08:06.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:08:21.104000+08:00","text":"有關審定的部分，我們的確在去年年底已經跟銓敘部合作，銓敘部也都全部轉交到退休的警察人員手上，所以就審定的部分的確是已經依法完成了，但是因為後續有關預算……","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:08:22.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:08:50.468000+08:00","text":"你沒有執行啊，現在我們面對每一個警察同仁，我也常講，不管是年金、不管是相關部分的改革，我們一起支持、努力，但本席更重要就是只有8個字的原則，「保障現職、照顧退休」，到現在你們講差額的部分還是沒有執行，你自己的報告寫「依行政院聲請釋憲及暫時處分結果辦理，本部配合辦理」。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:08:52.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:08:57.272000+08:00","text":"內政部也好、行政部門也好，什麼時候可以配合行政院不依法行政的？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:08:57.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:09:03.436000+08:00","text":"行政院比法律大，是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:09:03.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:09:04.217000+08:00","text":"行政院比法律大！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:09:07.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:09:37.598000+08:00","text":"更讓本席沒有辦法接受的是，後面還多加一段，「本部為警察人員主管機關，向來重視警察、消防等人員權益」，還用粗體黑字，有點噁心啊，一方面講重視警察、消防人員權益，另外一方面配合行政院打假球，8個月過去了，然後現在在等行政院送釋憲跟暫時處分，現在暫時處分了沒，還沒嘛！","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:09:38.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:09:44.941000+08:00","text":"如果現在暫時處分還沒的話，內政部、行政機關憑什麼不依法辦理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:09:46.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:09:50.844000+08:00","text":"法令可以這樣子自己解釋嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:09:50.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:09:58.247000+08:00","text":"一個聲請人現在聲請暫時處分不要納稅、聲請釋憲不要納稅，我送出的那一刻就可以不繳稅？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:10:01.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:10:04.385000+08:00","text":"暫時處分是這樣用的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:10:04.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:10:12.929000+08:00","text":"不是嘛，結果你們今天的報告還可以直接白紙黑字寫「依行政院釋憲跟暫時處分……」，這就是於法無據啊！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳處長慧嬪","start":"2026-01-12T12:10:13.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:10:16.491000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，基本上行政一體，所以行政院目前……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:10:16.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:10:32.752000+08:00","text":"行政一體，行政一體大過法律？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:10:34.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:11:04.081000+08:00","text":"那叫獨裁國家，行政一體，你敢說我還不敢講，那叫獨裁國家，獨裁國家才會行政一個人說了算、總統一個人說了算，大家不用看法律，反正總統想怎麼樣就怎麼樣，警察退休待遇、消防退休待遇、海巡退休待遇放著沒關係，因為這不是執政黨提出來的案，所以就可以擱著？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:11:08.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:11:17.355000+08:00","text":"抱歉，主席，1分鐘的時間，我是不是請一下刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防制中心張主任，好不好？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:11:17.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:11:18.417000+08:00","text":"其他官員請回，張主任，麻煩一下。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:11:18.417000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:11:27.041000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:11:27.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:11:39.831000+08:00","text":"主任，本席從過去到現在一直很關心詐欺的打詐成效，我想請教，因為本席每天都有看打詐儀錶板的數字，我不是要隨堂抽考，你放心。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:11:41.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:12:00.063000+08:00","text":"10月，60億金額被詐騙，11月，59.8億被詐騙，但12月上升了，66億，這都是打詐儀錶板的數字，本席幾乎每天都會去關注，等於平均一天差不多被詐騙兩億多，我想請教我們目前掌握的狀況。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:12:00.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:12:26.234000+08:00","text":"10月、11月，本席那個時候也提醒過，就是它看起來有一個天花板，就是60億，真的要降不容易降，就代表詐騙還是很猖獗，即便是宣導了165反詐騙等等，但是它有一個天花板，可是到12月，突然又往上了，變66億，有沒有什麼樣的情資或是你有觀察到，是什麼樣的樣態還是持續讓國人有被詐騙的風險或狀況？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:12:26.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:12:40.880000+08:00","text":"報告委員，詐騙的問題其實很複雜，如果依照歷年、二十幾年來詐騙的發展趨勢，其實到年底、到隔年1月過年前，通常會是一個……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:12:41.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:12:41.880000+08:00","text":"比較高峰。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:12:42.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:12:43.521000+08:00","text":"對，會比較高峰，這是第一個。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:12:43.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:12:59.727000+08:00","text":"第二個就是，其實在各項政策推動，其中推動最大的一個是潛在被害人的部分，因為我們激發讓這些長期遭到詐騙的被害人提早出來報案，所以這也造成數據可能會提早出來。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:12:59.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:13:48.587000+08:00","text":"另外一個就是我們也沒辦法做一個明確的定論，也有可能是因為……但這個是沒辦法去證實的，也有可能是因為泰柬打仗的原因，包括緬甸好像前天跟昨天都有發布說他們……當然我們沒辦法證實這是不是真實的，最主要就是，今天炸毀了園區以後，這會造成還在持續遭詐的被害人提早清醒，因為沒有聯繫，等於騙他的詐騙集團就沒辦法跟他聯絡了，所以他們就發現自己已經被騙了，所以這幾個原因都很有可能導致12月遭詐財損數字往上，等於會比11月的59.9億來得多，多了六億多。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:13:48.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:13:56.749000+08:00","text":"所以其實我們也還在觀察看看1月份目前的狀況，因為1月份目前的狀況，平均每天看起來大概是一億多到兩億多。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:13:58.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:14:13.983000+08:00","text":"主任，我很尊重專業，我覺得打詐要大家一起來，不分朝野、藍綠，但是如果照你這樣講的話，其實詐騙的歪風、惡行並沒有因為我們強力打詐而有所降低。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:14:15.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:14:22.188000+08:00","text":"今天數字的提升，為什麼數字很重要，因為它是很科學的東西，數字起來就是起來、下降就是下降。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:14:23.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:14:36.857000+08:00","text":"本席要講的是，你說是因為被破獲，所以被害者提前去報案的話，過去這幾個月，民進黨政府一直在那邊跟我們強調或洗腦說打詐有成效、都往下了，錯了！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:14:36.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:14:37.957000+08:00","text":"那根本就是蓋牌啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:14:37.957000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:14:38.957000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我是拿……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:14:38.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:14:47.400000+08:00","text":"就是之前蓋牌了，只是被害者還沒有報案，沒想到因為破獲了首腦之後，一掀開蟑螂就跑出來了，所以大家就……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:14:47.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:14:53.361000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我建議可以從6月看到12月，因為它要看一個趨勢，我剛剛是說如果拿11月……","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:14:54.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:14:56.842000+08:00","text":"我有看到那個趨勢是往下，但是12月是往上。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:14:57.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:15:20.964000+08:00","text":"再來，主任，本席講實在話，如果那個趨勢是1天只剩200件、100件，或是1天只剩幾十萬被詐騙，我會給你鼓勵，但是如果1天還是有兩億多被詐騙，1個月還是有一萬多件的時候，你要我跟你講現在成效好棒，抱歉！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:15:21.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:15:31.482000+08:00","text":"我說不下去，因為1個月一萬多件代表有一萬多個破碎的家庭，1天兩億多，我們去（2025）年被詐騙的金額多少？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:15:33.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:15:59.187000+08:00","text":"本席幫你算了，891億、將近900億，2025年一整年臺灣被騙了891億，這是打詐儀錶板上的數字，還有多少沒報案的不知道，還有多少被詐騙小錢想說算了，當作買一個教訓的不知道，但光是打詐儀錶板上的數字就有891億。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:16:00.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:16:12.237000+08:00","text":"所以本席要提出來一個誠摯的建議及呼籲，好好做事，而且看那個數字去分析、了解，到底案情在哪邊，還有哪一些新型態的詐騙。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:16:12.237000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:16:13.237000+08:00","text":"是，委員，我們會持續精進，請您放心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:16:12.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:16:31.346000+08:00","text":"最後，本席提醒一下，因為社群媒體平臺最近也有一個詐騙是老手法，可是還是有很多人被騙，就是他故意用送什麼東西，譬如我家有多出來的咖啡店新的城市杯，我要免費贈送。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:16:32.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:16:35.007000+08:00","text":"很多是在Threads和IG，我們都有在注意。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:16:35.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:16:57.242000+08:00","text":"對，還有像吊牌有好多，我要贈送，甚至還利用我們臺灣人的愛心，說臺灣的行李牌很漂亮，所以要贈送，結果人家真的跟他聯繫之後，發現原來後面是一個詐騙的手法，也許不完全都是，但是在Threads、IG上面有很多這樣的手法，而網路上的討論也很多。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:16:58.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:16:59.285000+08:00","text":"有，報告委員，我們持續在蒐報。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-01-12T12:17:00.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:17:04.272000+08:00","text":"這個部分再麻煩你們要積極一點作為，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"張主任文源","start":"2026-01-12T12:17:04.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-01-12T12:17:04.292000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-12T12:17:04.792000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:17:06.220571+08:00","text":"謝謝洪委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-12T12:17:06.520571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:17:12.520571+08:00","text":"接下來請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-12T12:17:12.820571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:17:19.106286+08:00","text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-12T12:17:19.406286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:17:30.834857+08:00","text":"委員質詢時所要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，也請相關機關儘速送交給個別委員以及本會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-01-12T12:17:31.134857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-01-12T12:17:40.849143+08:00","text":"委員翁曉玲、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報，也請相關機關以書面答復。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}