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國人不用太擔心了嘛現在比較大的問題就是來自於因為你要用現貨來調度所以說這個成本會增加可以告訴我們跟一般比起來這個成本增加多少嗎"},{"start":67.51,"end":80.221,"text":"平均大概一艘船可能會到8億到10億之間8億到10億之間那這樣的部分裡面是不是也要由我們棕油來做這樣子的是不是要由棕油來吸收這個經費"},{"start":84.985,"end":112.064,"text":"為什麼要這樣問部長原因很簡單因為中油好不容易今年喔由虧轉盈還可以盈餘的八十多億那這樣一補起來這個中油又要變成連七年都要虧損所以但是如果說沒有中油來吸收的話它會轉嫁到人民身上這整個通膨可能跟世界性一樣都會造成一大損失所以我們要問是不是到最後都是由中油來吸收我們大概事實上是以穩定物價為主啦這個部分"},{"start":112.608,"end":115.129,"text":"那當然就是說如果要反映價格的部分的話"},{"start":116.142,"end":143.032,"text":"民眾是保障民眾當然保障民眾很重要不過我就說從這個部分裡面我們就可以知道機載電力是非常重要的所以我們要回到我們最根本的一個能源問題我想這個非核家園這個部分大家已經講走了非常多的路了那我想請問一下院長非核家園到目前為止我們連SMR這個新核能終於出現了符合社會世界的一個趨勢這個改變是不是來自於美國的壓力"},{"start":143.932,"end":172.086,"text":"那並非在去年的5月17號和三長二號集會之後我們就進入到一個沒有核能的時代不是因為為什麼要特別這樣子問其實因為過去長期的你們擁抱著這樣子的一個神主牌突然之間冒出這個新的核能這個部分所以中間一個轉折的關鍵點到底在什麼我們很想了解目前是走上一個正規我們給予肯定但是這個轉節點到底突然之間就變成這樣讓我們有點措手不及"},{"start":172.728,"end":195.644,"text":"就法律面而言是核管法修正之後我們對於核能電廠是不是能夠重新啟用這個新的時程上的實現事實上你所提出的三個前提過去也是這樣講可是你這個三個前提當中的話你有沒有社會共識有沒有回歸安全每個人都這樣講但是過去在蔡政府時代的時候還是抱著這樣子的一個神主牌"},{"start":196.044,"end":210.539,"text":"现在目前来说我们就论事好了那我想请问一下院长目前来说的话你是不是要把行政院的非核家园推动小组是不是因为要再重启核二核三然后要解散并没有要解散哪一个小组"},{"start":211.71,"end":235.702,"text":"就像河山廠他除役之後他所有的人我們還是希望台電能把他留下來這是組織上面的問題那還好如果是這樣子的話那原能會從二級單位被降為三級單位現在由河安委員會來那因為要配合這個新的還有包括安全是否有機會把它變成二級單位再重新回到二級單位當中原能會現在重要的是它的功能能不能發揮"},{"start":236.742,"end":264.391,"text":"在台電送出再運轉計畫以及提出自主安全檢查一定要經過原能會做最終的審核我了解 但是你如果把三級變成二級的話你要因應未來的核能的趨勢的話它的人力 它的經費 它的各方面會因為這樣就增加比較符合現在的趨勢所以組織調整上面有沒有可能把它變成二級這個原因是原能會它還是收網羅所有的專家來處理這樣的問題第二個是我們現在二級機關目前來講是沒有什麼一個空位"},{"start":265.351,"end":282.491,"text":"来持有这个部分来让它升级我觉得这个部分还是要有非常多的调整为什么要这样做因为核二核三你现在目前为止你的厨艺计划尚未完全来做终止你还要再继续吗厨艺计划你一年可能要花费我们80亿"},{"start":283.112,"end":298.147,"text":"今年所编的预算比过去还要多20亿因为跑路到河山的厨艺多了20亿那你现在要重新的运转重新运转跟厨艺本身是一个背道而驰的观念请问一下厨艺计划还要不要继续进行还是你"},{"start":298.567,"end":315.351,"text":"核貨後端不管你要延幾年之後你還是得要廚藝所以你錢還是要準備你現在已經要做運轉那這八十億我還要不要再花嘛我這八十億還要不要再花嘛你現在是廚藝計畫花了八十億那你現在要重新運轉那是否廚藝的計畫就可以暫時緩和然後呢我們來進行所謂的新的運轉計畫它不一定是這樣你發一度的那個核電的話"},{"start":321.593,"end":347.453,"text":"你要提撥一部分出來當作核貨後端的基金了解啊 但不需要到這麼多錢嗎這跟你上次預期的不一樣所以我才說突然之間有一個這樣新的一個計畫出現了我們在去年的時候我在教文我們本來就對核安會來做質詢那時候我們不預期突然之間在SMR我們那時候講老半天會突然到目前為止好像開始在推動一切都往這個方向來走"},{"start":347.813,"end":365.812,"text":"所以我才说以前我们讨论是厨艺现在我们讨论是在运转中间是牵涉到经费的问题嘛对不对然后呢最重要的是我要问一下院长过去蔡政府的时候曾经对我们核能对于我们能源的配比有二十三十跟五十这样的计划虽然到二零二六年的时候呢目前来说"},{"start":366.272,"end":392.8,"text":"火力发电占比已经达到81.3哦完全就是已经符合你当初所设定的规定那目前为止呢再生能源的缺口还缺的差不多是7.3的一个缺口嘛那我们在这二个谈判当中呢我们也承诺在我们在2025到2029的时候我们要促进采购美国的天然气还有相关的电力大概700亿美金嘛那这样是不是我们要多增加我们对天然气的这样依赖"},{"start":393.34,"end":405.365,"text":"所以蔡政府提出來是20 30 50那請問賴政府所提出來的部分配比會是多少我們會把天然氣的部分再跟他調整現在我們希望今年2026年就能夠達到20%"},{"start":408.342,"end":434.256,"text":"天然气达到20%目前有啊你像我像说火力全开火力占比已经81.3了燃烈26.6然后呢燃气是53.3了所以你目前为止整个火力来说已经81.3我想只问如果核能加进来你这整个的配比会是如何我们过去朗朗上口20 30 50那现在你组这个地方它的配比会是多少可不可以让我们有一个这样子一个概念"},{"start":434.807,"end":454.275,"text":"因為核能的再運轉目前還是在一個程序進行當中誰都不知道有沒有可能全部都再運轉因為他還要提出自主安全檢查所以說在2027、在2028的預估我們目前都還沒有做這樣的一個估算就對了我們還是依照原來的現在20、30會調整,50是不變"},{"start":456.616,"end":474.7,"text":"什麼時候調整調整的比例是多少等到自主安全檢查如果通過然後可以重新運轉的時候這個目標我們當然會做適度的調整核的部分可能也要增加進去的所以很清楚讓我們大家知道能源的配比是如何"},{"start":475.1,"end":476.421,"text":"目前不會三月四月我剛才講的已經都調度完成"},{"start":497.58,"end":519.426,"text":"调度完成但是我还是要特别为我们高雄来问一下我们高雄市六都温室气体的这个排放是第一名了第一名了新达电厂说实在是我们高雄人的一个梦魇虽然说2023年的时候我们厨艺是一号机二号机去年大概是三号机但是呢我们都被转成紧急备用的机主虽然民间的团体都希望"},{"start":520.466,"end":533.438,"text":"不要是備用他希望是永久除役最主要為什麼要問這個問題因為我們在去年的時候不是在停電時間我們一號二號機也是偷偷開機都還不是在固定的時間沒有偷偷"},{"start":535.34,"end":563.285,"text":"經濟部長特別告訴我們是你是要試驗啦要來例行的點火試驗啦但是你也不能否認我們一號機的時候在去年也曾經發生爆炸的一個事故那我要為我們的居民特別是我們這個北高雄居民說他長期就是忍受了這樣子的一個所謂的空污啊你說要換新的啊現在你再給我們一個古的盤子又要拿起來燒然後那地方最不平的是台電都告訴他這東西是廚藝啊所以我們沒有回饋金也沒有補償金"},{"start":564.145,"end":585.786,"text":"所以居民就會說 你都廚藝的 可是你還是緊急備用我要吸的不好的空氣 我又沒有錢可以領這對居民來說 其實會有很多的怨言了連城市長也要求台電也要重新來做個評估不知道你同不同意是 八五元 所以因為事實上 尤其是最近幾年高雄的這個產業發展非常熱絡 我想您也知道"},{"start":586.346,"end":603.021,"text":"所以他的確用電量是正常的但是每個每次都說我們AI需要用電、VIA就要用電但是重點是你們那時候台電本來有二期的更新改建計畫要新增兩部新的燃料燃氣機組這不錯對不對但是現在又告訴我們要陸續這個就得要陸續這個汰換但是現在又出現了說五部舊燃料機組要到2037年"},{"start":616.413,"end":626.141,"text":"2023年他有更新的整個組件所以他的排放污染物已經下降滿多還是在那個地方11年最主要是有很多氣的話是對CO2排放比較少"},{"start":628.263,"end":647.535,"text":"對啦,但是我告訴你,我們的居民會反對,因為你的救濟署的運轉超過25年然後呢,他們都說你每次都跟我們講說AI AI,他們都在哀啊,對不對,他們都在哀啊然後最重要的原因是說,你研議11年,你有沒有公然違反這個對於環評的一個承諾呢?有沒有?"},{"start":648.957,"end":664.218,"text":"報告委員這個一號機新的一號機跟新的二三號機有的一樣一號機它已經開始在已經上線了那新的二三號機我們也開始要接受調度所有其他的那只是當作一個緊急備用的而已"},{"start":665.459,"end":692.339,"text":"因為你告訴大家說要延你就去延這個部分裡面對大家所認知的以為馬上就有新的然後又要延對居民來說其實很難接受所以他們都想他們開始很勾引的相信你會先見後猜啊他們以為只要忍到2026年就可以退場了你現在突然一句話說為了AI他要重新來所以他會擔心髒空氣沒有辦法讓他們能夠認真做嗎不會不會我們會"},{"start":693.36,"end":707.347,"text":"有關於這個所謂污染物會總量管制所以說部長我們就是希望你能夠公開承諾給我們一個拆除的一個計畫然後呢要落實廚藝透明監督合理的補償這合理吧"},{"start":708.41,"end":714.574,"text":"我們就按照這個來做所以你要讓居民放心新的機組會先上來舊的機組就讓他有一定的時間給我們一個採除計畫院長給我們一個採除計畫一個時程這個很合理嘛對不對"},{"start":730.243,"end":746.961,"text":"這個可以嗎 給我們一個採取計畫 像台中一樣嘛不要到時候 等到2029年要11年大家看這個數字是很敏感你後面講說有換到新的什麼 這都不足以補償該補償的我還是要替我們北高雄的 我們沿岸的居民說一聲啦這樣可以嗎"},{"start":747.741,"end":771.506,"text":"回饋金可以的就是這樣子來我們還是一句話回到我們的中油中油負債現在是破兆院長這都不是我講這都是審計部的一個報告因為現在的負債太多已經到113年的時候已經到一兆兩千了他現在已經被很多的這個負債比零超過92%了所以呢連買園園都要付現買園園都要付現然後呢我們還要編千億我們要去擴充我們的產能"},{"start":776.227,"end":792.106,"text":"所以当然了又开始有人就会提出来了这也是审计部的计划审计部告诉我们我们林源呢因为新四清洗湾林盒嘛对吧他说他现在目前是处在土壤液化高前市区而且院长还有这个部长你们看一下哦"},{"start":792.526,"end":818.335,"text":"目前來說最重要是全球的這個產能過剩那這個部分裡面過剩的危機要到119年都還是過剩而且我們碳排的共識的一個落差這個到審計部的計畫當中你們過去說你要做這樣的一個事情因為你預計碳排會增加93.3萬噸那你們過去說你們核定前要跟我們高雄市政府的這個達成碳排的共識"},{"start":819.155,"end":823.918,"text":"我們的承諾就是說雖然他的這個乙烯的這個預計量增加但是整個排放量因為新四星不會增加"},{"start":837.726,"end":861.807,"text":"雖然它的量是用最新的技術嘛現在最新的技術也不過把你93.3現在降到70萬嘛對不對把它降到70萬嘛但是重點還是有很多特別提到因為你堅持擴產到你堅持擴展這個隱形的產能全球過剩但是中油目前為止還是希望把60萬噸變成100萬噸那你這樣產生出來的只能做一些塑膠或者能夠做到一些比較"},{"start":862.307,"end":878.797,"text":"大家比較關切就是你有沒有辦法像中鋼一樣能夠做高質化的這樣的一個處理這是我們希望能夠在產業上面來做這樣的一個部分中鋼目前為止都往這方面去做努力喔升級這個是一定要做的事情我們是持續在做"},{"start":879.417,"end":894.296,"text":"那我們當然希望你不要毛利每次都做那些毛利很少的我們也希望能夠把它練成像實驗室等級啊論客來賣的啊然後呢也高純度的半導體的這個專用的這個化學物質啊這才符合我們所謂高質化的目標嘛但是還是一句話"},{"start":897.981,"end":902.564,"text":"我們有跟高雄市政府在談過將來如何提升他的新的效能這個也是一個進步我想跟委員報告我們很感謝國營事業的單位中油台電以及台水長期都接受很多的政策的必需"},{"start":928.161,"end":942.681,"text":"把這個價錢都壓得很低尤其最次的這個中油 純然是戰爭的關係是啦 我就說嘛 它本來是有80億的盈餘現在目前為止又因為這樣的話 又沒有辦法了嗎所以將來我們如何在這個財務上學術這個是必要的另外"},{"start":943.482,"end":972.354,"text":"我們的產能我們必須要我們自主韌性國內要夠我們家裡要夠院長這個大家都無庸去疑我現在所提出來質疑並不是說你不能弄新四期你必須要說服環團說服我們的李明還有說服非常多的一個單位最主要是碳排的這個層面來說還有包括中油有沒有它的財務狀況有沒有辦法再承接起目前你的新的技術而所造成的一個所謂效能的影響我覺得這次才是我們共同一個追上的方向"},{"start":972.774,"end":983.731,"text":"而且如果新四清可以這樣子對我們的碳排可以降低的話那我們就要請問為什麼不從新三清來做一個示範作用為什麼從新四清開始為什麼不從新三清開始也來做這樣的事情呢 部長"},{"start":984.813,"end":1008.415,"text":"因為四清的部分它已經營運到齊了當初再來講所以它有一些更新的需要所以我在說碳排的部分裡面你不用等到新四清其實新三清的部分裡面你可以考慮來做這樣一個處理主委 院長你剛剛所講的那個目標我們大家都毋庸置疑都會我們地方也很感謝這些國營的單位但是我還是要提到的一個能源政策的走得遠走得長"},{"start":1009.176,"end":1028.537,"text":"我们希望我们像用科学数据来做而不像过去一样永远都是说不通的院长我像是给你一个肯定你终于可以扭转这个部分让我们走向跟世界的趋势是一样的但是有关于中油有关于碳排的问题有关于它的财务黑洞的问题这点是我们都要特别指出来的"},{"start":1029.238,"end":1054.591,"text":"了解吧好接下来我要进入这个土方之乱的我不晓得土方之乱有谁可以来协助我们院长来做这样的一个回应内政部长好不好来我们的内政部长跟我们的环境部谢谢我想我们这个土方的部分这个2026年我们这个土方之乱我想是全国性的一个问题当然是个美农大峡谷的我们有一些被倒彩然后回填这个废弃物的问题内政部"},{"start":1055.091,"end":1074.311,"text":"已经强制要求要用GPS还有包括电子连单这个部分内在部已经非常积极在做但是无可否认我们目前为止有关于这个处理的产量能还是不足的然后呢轻易的成本也是暴涨这是存在的一个事实那我想这个部分来说的话"},{"start":1075.032,"end":1096.69,"text":"因為這個土方真的不是最近才開始長期以來都是現在我們都聽到非常多的一個抱怨了我想請問一下目前來說剩餘營建剩餘土石方的處理的方案已經超過30年了定位不是很清楚也不是法律未接然後呢政策來說跨部會協調我記得去年3月"},{"start":1098.051,"end":1122.29,"text":"去年3月18号的时候监察院曾经做过这样一个纠正那请问院长目前为止我们做的方式是什么我还是先把它讲完因为那个时候被纠正的时候国土署有回应他说环境部要把这个废青法纳入要来做这样一个全国性的一个修法那我请问现在的这个废青法有修正吗目前为止"},{"start":1122.99,"end":1144.933,"text":"而且那时候国土署说环境部要修那环境部有修吗而且我也非常清楚的非常赞同某种程度环境部长有说你要推这个循环经济推动法你认为不是每个东西都是垃圾好好的处理也可以变成是一个好的部分请问这两个最重要的法你们有做任何的处理吗"},{"start":1145.855,"end":1163.181,"text":"好報告委員所有的這個土石方我們台灣幾十年來從來沒有認真的處理那這一次我們是認真的去面對這個事情那這個法律的部分呢我們其實經過的努力已經在行政院內部已經開過差不多到最後一個階段了我們的確也在進行修正當中"},{"start":1163.561,"end":1185.063,"text":"所以说从过去到现在我还是必须要说你看你那时候被纠正的时候内政环保法务三大部长大动作的开记者会啊去年五月十七二十七号时候你要有四大政策来去面对啊但是呢不好意思去年也同样的同一年十二月底你们全部开完大政战会议之后十二月底的时候呢"},{"start":1186.184,"end":1204.229,"text":"又再被一次的告訴大家做的還不夠然後你看院長你也可以看一下目前為止就像剛剛環境部長所提到的這麼久以來難得你們三位部長全部站在一起的可是問題到現在到今年此時此刻還是一樣土方的問題還是存在廢棄物的問題還是存在營建"},{"start":1205.209,"end":1225.14,"text":"營建的這個單位裡面叫得不得了然後呢到底這個問題目前為止該怎麼辦你不覺得應該有個跨部會的單位來好好把這些問題處理好嗎而且部長你剛所承諾那兩大修法目前也還是看不到什麼時候推出來每個委員都有提出他們的修正版本可是我們還是沒有看到行政院的對岸啊這什麼時候可以來告訴我們"},{"start":1225.72,"end":1250.302,"text":"跟怎麼樣來解決其實你如果了解也能夠知道我們現在每個州每週所對於土方開的會議你就會知道它已經有一個具體的方向包括它的最終去處包括它的戰事場 土事場以及包括我們現在在一個行政區裡面的異地戰事三個方式同時都在進行港區會有港區的這個最終去處港區台北港等等也會有它的戰事場"},{"start":1251.162,"end":1269.338,"text":"這個都有辦法在做我就是符合你剛所說的我非常的關注我也知道你們在做哪一些事情好的現在問題又來了我們是不是也可以請農業部長其實這個時候也應該站出來了你們這個協調老半天然後內政部的這個國土署今年宣布要擴增農地改良來做一個土方的這個區方嘛"},{"start":1269.798,"end":1285.954,"text":"然後這個時候呢有很多民間團體就開始非常的反彈因為他們都認為2021年農委會那時候就完全禁止任何的土方進到我們這個農地啊因為他認為時間暫停一下吧各位我想農業部長要備詢外業部長請回好嗎什麼"},{"start":1287.816,"end":1308.525,"text":"就是農業部長現在被尋你問到農業部的事情農業部長被尋可不可以請劉部長回去喔可以反正農業部長好我們跟環境部謝謝那我們就請環境部還是要在環境部部長請回對對對內政部長內政部長是留下來準備內政部長可以農業部請回請回"},{"start":1311.937,"end":1322.592,"text":"謝謝農業部長請備詢好時間繼續好我不曉得這個臺子只能站三個人硬體的建築這樣而且畫面不好看這些部長不能像小學生一樣回去到領導課不會的了解畫面不好看謝謝謝謝訓導長我們尊重好不好好謝謝"},{"start":1326.056,"end":1350.536,"text":"来我们就是就像院长你所提到我们每一次都非常的关切我刚提到的农地改良内政部国土署已经提出了农地改良这样一个问题了但是每一次都被卡在这个部分农业部当然过去在2021当然不是这个部长上任之前之前就在农委会的时候就有这样的条例嘛一个施行条例里面几乎是把我们B3跟B4的这个去化的这个途径全部封死了"},{"start":1351.116,"end":1364.833,"text":"這就是為什麼目前為止院長處理了老半天可是這個問題裡面如果沒有辦法去做一個處理的話這個問題還是卡在那個地方而且你剛剛所提到的這個叫填海以高雄港為例的話同樣來回應剛剛院長的問題我們目前要規劃收容這個南部的廢土"},{"start":1370.16,"end":1394.045,"text":"这个工程来说可是目前来说我们要进入二阶段的一个评估因为我们考虑到填海里面有些海洋很害怕当中会造成一个环境上的污染我们的南科如果有一个评估要21个月你现在要进入第二个第二期的一个环境评估的话你说这个填海造陆我们现在几乎没有空间可以来放置这个多余的土方光是在去花的部分里面"},{"start":1394.705,"end":1406.707,"text":"卡在農業部的一個條例當中就讓很多事情沒有辦法來做徹底的解決院長 我很關切啊 但是沒辦法啦填海造路 填海造路還不是一個最終的處理方法那我們今天就是"},{"start":1408.28,"end":1428.622,"text":"調查全國的土地可以開始做的就是要進入環評就儘早進入環評我們為的是國土的保育為的是很多土地的利用所以你這個高雄港的部分可不可以用專案的方法來處理你如果用這個方法來就是不知道等到什麼時候所以我還有一個戰事場戰事場先行啟用其他的戰事場在還沒有完全"},{"start":1429.463,"end":1456.299,"text":"最终去化的时候为什么请农业部长过来里面就是因为一个细则几乎把所有大家所可能考虑到的去化的途径一个条例几乎就把它堵死了当然我们也同意民团当中也很担心现在大家地方里面就是太多的法规细则没有很清楚所以说当没有很清楚以后这么东西都要拿去堆置的时候院长我告诉你法规不够清楚"},{"start":1457.486,"end":1481.588,"text":"很多時候你就會看到大家就是會違法然後呢地方政府也只能用加重處罰的方法問題還是沒有辦法解決我們已經在進行當中另外一個委員你剛才說到循環經濟現在有很多房子都好好拆好好拆就沒有廢棄物所以我們鼓勵好好拆那當然好好拆這是一個每一個人都要做的事情也希望委員可以支持"},{"start":1482.448,"end":1510.246,"text":"我現在只是希望院長你根本找一個政委你好好把這個部分裡面調我剛說有被毒死的然後有被混淆的還有很多的法律不清楚的知道你們在做但是顯然目前遇到一些卡關那這些卡關讓現在此時此刻開始其實還是有很多土方的問題還是沒有辦法解決我們遇到很多的卡關說真的所以我們一一一直在克服當時也該管現在3月到5月就會有比較十足的進展5月份會有一些土地會釋放出來"},{"start":1510.971,"end":1512.152,"text":"五月會有一部分 五月就會有更多的土地可以來使用"},{"start":1531.88,"end":1535.044,"text":"其實去年的時候六都都有承諾要一起來做這個事情我們中央很努力也希望地方政府也要努力來配合"},{"start":1551.141,"end":1566.717,"text":"我覺得那個法規弄清楚B3 B4這個到底有沒有辦法再回田回去光是這個部分把它規範清楚就好農花條例裡面相關的規範其實農地的土壤改良是因為農地的需要不能是因為為了處理"},{"start":1568.819,"end":1586.806,"text":"這個土石開放農地所以我們在跟環境部在討論的時候就有很詳細的這樣的一個規範部長我知道我們開過很多公聽會農業部都要派代表他光是頒出你們這個條例來就大家就閉嘴了因為你們這個法規如果不解除的話其實後面非常多的方式是沒有辦法來"},{"start":1587.826,"end":1616.795,"text":"來做的你們的職員都非常盡忠職守可是也讓很多的討論就會遇到卡關這點我還是必須要指出來我跟委員報告齁其實在院裡面包括院長主持的相關的部位就是為了解決這樣的一個法規要適合的部分很需要跨單位的部分所以我們就因應期待建築業還有包括很多的民團都在因應期待你們可以弄一個更標準更規範的方法讓大家有一個依循的目標這樣比較好做"},{"start":1617.435,"end":1643.875,"text":"對不對所以院長已經說五月的時候可以讓這個整個問題的解決稍微看到更大的進展這樣沒錯吧內政部跟其他工會還有這個產業也都進行當面的溝通五月好不好五月好不好院長我們就看到這個五月因為目前這些問題還存在好農業部長可以請回座最後我要問到一個還是幫我們高雄的這個羅思業院長你上次去的時候"},{"start":1645.998,"end":1663.377,"text":"這個你已經去了好幾次了我知道然後呢經濟部長我們工部長你從秘書長到部長都還是一樣都到我們高雄跟螺絲葉對不對第一次去的時候我也在現場那時候是秘書長現在是部長但是抱歉問題還是不一樣你看我們樓我們上次有非常多人來陳情嘛"},{"start":1663.777,"end":1691.317,"text":"他說呢面臨十二年最大的一個寒冬現在是坐視修山我想部長跟院長都很瞭解我們螺絲當初你們在說我們是我們高雄之光等等之類的沒有問題但是他們遇到這麼大的寒冬的時候呢他們希望能夠爭取232條款的豁免有沒有機會 有沒有辦法脫鉤目前談的這樣的條件有沒有機會阿特已經談定了談定然後呢現在已經談定了 所以說是"},{"start":1692.421,"end":1704.634,"text":"所以我們現在螺絲業的關稅要被扣多少%?就是232一般規定怎麼樣?多少%?就是50%全世界都一樣就是很難嗎?那你知道50%對他們來說真的是我們跟扣件業的業者也談過,當然他們也需要很大的幫忙"},{"start":1714.665,"end":1730.847,"text":"現在都希望他們升級轉型就是專業性的這個扣件他的價錢就會降低每個人都知道的專業的扣件我們也在做升級但是目前為止已經得一半了可能已經倒了不知道到哪裡去的環境部長可以先回座的謝謝不好意思彭部長"},{"start":1731.488,"end":1751.946,"text":"現在比較好了 今年相對於去年來講我們現在放的所謂的這個減班休息的人數已經剩下三千八百多人相對於去年的八千多人已經少了非常多了其實我說實在的 這個每個 不要說是我啦我們所有高雄的立委上來就是會非常關切這樣的問題我們今天也承受"},{"start":1752.406,"end":1752.806,"text":"你誤解了"},{"start":1776.641,"end":1801.963,"text":"那時候我們ART談完了已經談完了以後因為其他的產業有些降到15%有些降到25%那你為什麼不把它當成第一個產業你為什麼不把它當第一項所有部分來一起談呢我們會把其他的資源移多一點給扣建業那你當初為什麼不把它當所以你還是把它放在後面你為什麼不再當它主流談定的所以把它納入項目來談呢那它本來就是第一位第一順位第一順位還談到我們現在的螺絲業還被扣這麼多"},{"start":1803.324,"end":1805.847,"text":"目前來說你可以看得出來後面那一個階段"},{"start":1825.465,"end":1852.612,"text":"執行率你看目前為止我們所執行的方式461看起來是非常的好但是預算執行率目前不到三成所以我們就在想你到底是門檻太高還是你的行政流程太緩慢因為我們那個執行的時間是兩年多還是一樣啊大家都因應較苦很多人講說你會不會在這個門檻還有行政的流程上面是否給人家現在能夠我們通過的比例來申請跟通過的比例是超過百分之六十到七十"},{"start":1853.092,"end":1862.998,"text":"可是你整个执行来说我现在只是反映我们所有业者的一个声音好不好你那时候提出的计划当中你还要提出他的研发计划提到什么计划很多人觉得这个整个的门"},{"start":1880.609,"end":1894.224,"text":"好,谢谢克森委员咨询,谢谢卓院长相关部会所长备询,谢谢。我们下面刘建国委员咨询之后将会休息十分钟,十分钟之后请林黛华委员准备,我们现在请刘建国委员。"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:17.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:17.756000+08:00","text":"謝謝韓院長，我們是不是請卓院長？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:17.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:18.637000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:18.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:19.798000+08:00","text":"我想我們應該還是要請經濟部部長也上來一下，謝謝。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:19.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:20.058000+08:00","text":"麻煩請經濟部部長備詢。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:20.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:20.258000+08:00","text":"柯委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:20.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:22.840000+08:00","text":"院長好、部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:22.840000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:35.874000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:35.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:45.650000+08:00","text":"對於中東戰爭，大家最擔心的當然是能源供應的問題，有關3月和4月的天然氣調度問題，目前為止我們應該不用太擔心吧？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:46.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:47.202000+08:00","text":"已經都解決了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:47.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:48.063000+08:00","text":"已經都解決了？對。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:48.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:49.263000+08:00","text":"5月也是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:49.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:58.647000+08:00","text":"5月份我們原來有8艘船會經過荷姆茲海峽，現在大概剩下5艘，我們還持續在……","quality":0.567},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:01:59.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:01:59.848000+08:00","text":"還在持續？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:00.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:02:03.149000+08:00","text":"所以4月底之前國人不用太擔心了嘛！對。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:03.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:02:12.093000+08:00","text":"現在比較大的問題來自於，因為你要用現貨來調度，所以成本會增加，部長可以告訴我們，和一般比起來，這個成本增加多少嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:13.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:02:18.915000+08:00","text":"平均一艘船可能會在8億到10億之間。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:18.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:02:19.776000+08:00","text":"8億到10億之間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:19.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:02:26.201000+08:00","text":"那麼這個經費是不是要由中油來吸收？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:26.201000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:02:30.985000+08:00","text":"嗯，天然氣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:30.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:02:32.006000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要這樣問部長？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:32.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:02:53.140000+08:00","text":"原因很簡單，因為中油今年好不容易由虧轉盈，而且還盈餘了八十多億，這樣一來，中油又要變成連續7年虧損，但是如果不由中油來吸收的話，就會轉嫁到人民身上，整個通膨可能和世界各國一樣造成一大損失，所以我們要問：是不是到最後就是由中油來吸收？","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:02:54.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:05.183000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們大概是以穩定物價為主，當然，如果要反映價格的話，是保障民眾，不要……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:05.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:13.746000+08:00","text":"當然，保障民眾很重要，不過我是說，從這裡面我們就可以知道基載電力是非常重要的，所以就要回到最根本的能源問題。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:14.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:29.012000+08:00","text":"非核家園已經走了非常多的路了，我想請問一下院長，非核家園到目前為止，在SMR這個新核能終於出現而且符合社會和世界趨勢，這個改變是不是來自美國的壓力？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:30.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:30.112000+08:00","text":"並不是。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:30.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:37.616000+08:00","text":"在去年5月17日核三廠2號機除役之後，我們就進入到一個沒有核能的時代了。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:38.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:39.937000+08:00","text":"本席為什麼要特別這樣問？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:40.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:49.842000+08:00","text":"因為長期以來，你們擁抱著這樣一個神主牌，現在突然冒出這個新的核能部分，中間這個轉折的關鍵點到底是什麼？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:49.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:50.722000+08:00","text":"我們很想瞭解。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:51.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:54.884000+08:00","text":"目前是走上正軌，我們要給予肯定，但是這個轉折點呢？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:55.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:03:58.066000+08:00","text":"突然之間變成這樣，讓我們有點措手不及耶！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:03:58.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:04:07.934000+08:00","text":"就法律面而言，是核管法修正之後，我們對於核能電廠是不是能夠重新啟用有一個新的時程上的實現，這是第一個……","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:04:07.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:04:21.624000+08:00","text":"事實上你所提出來的三個前提過去也是這樣講，可是你這三個前提當中包括有沒有社會共識、能不能維護安全，每個人都這樣講，但是過去在蔡政府時代還是抱著這樣子的一個神主牌。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:04:22.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:04:33.636000+08:00","text":"現在我們就事論事好了，我想請問一下院長，目前你是不是因為要重啟核二、核三，而把行政院的非核家園推動小組解散？","quality":0.612},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:04:35.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:04:42.673000+08:00","text":"並沒有要解散哪一個小組，就像核三廠除役之後，對於它所有的人，我們還是希望台電能把他們留下來。","quality":0.738},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:04:42.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:04:58.440000+08:00","text":"這是組織上面的問題，那還好，如果是這樣子的話，原能會從二級單位被降為三級單位，現在是核安委員會，因為要配合這個新的，還有包括安全，是否有機會把它變成二級單位，再重新回到二級單位當中。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:04:58.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:05:01.702000+08:00","text":"原能會，現在重要的是它的功能能不能發揮。是啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:05:02.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:05:09.224000+08:00","text":"在台電送出再運轉計畫以及提出自主安全檢查，一定要經過原能會做最終的審核。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:05:09.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:05:21.548000+08:00","text":"我了解，但是你如果把三級變成二級的話，你要因應未來核能趨勢的話，它的人力、經費等等各方面會因為這樣就增加，比較符合現在的趨勢，所以組織調整上面有沒有可能把它變成二級？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:05:21.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:05:30.371000+08:00","text":"再一個原因是原能會還是網羅所有的專家來處理這樣的問題；第二個是，我們二級機關以目前來講是沒有什麼空位來讓它升級……","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:05:32.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:05:37.479000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這個部分還是要有非常多的調整，為什麼要這樣呢？","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:05:37.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:05:44.487000+08:00","text":"因為核二、核三，目前為止，你的除役計畫尚未完全來做終止，你還要再繼續嗎？","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:05:46.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:06:04.127000+08:00","text":"除役計畫，你一年可能要花費我們80億，今年所編的預算比過去還要多20億，因為討論到核三的除役，多了20億，那麼你現在要重新的運轉，重新運轉跟除役本身是一個背道而馳的觀念，請問一下，除役計畫還要不要繼續進行，還是你……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:06:04.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:06:09.988000+08:00","text":"核後端，不管要延幾年之後，還是得要除役，所以錢還是要準備……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:06:09.988000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:06:10.988000+08:00","text":"我完全了解，但不是現在嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:06:09.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:06:13.269000+08:00","text":"你現在已經要做運轉，這80億我還要不要再花？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:06:15.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:06:19.671000+08:00","text":"你現在是除役計畫花了80億，你現在要重新運轉，是否除役的計畫就可以暫時緩和，然後我們來進行所謂新的運轉計畫？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:06:19.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:06:31.516000+08:00","text":"規定是這樣，你發1度的核電，你要提撥一部分出來當作核後端的基金，是這樣子。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:06:31.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:06:34.739000+08:00","text":"了解啊，但不需要到這麼多錢嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:06:34.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:06:59.579000+08:00","text":"這跟你當初預期的不一樣，所以我才說突然之間有這樣新的一個計畫出現了，去年的時候，我在教文委員會，我們本來就對核安會來做質詢，那時候我們不預期突然之間會推動，這個SMR，我們那時候講了老半天，到目前為止，突然好像開始在推動，一切都往這個方向走，所以我才說以前我們討論的是除役，現在我們討論的是再運轉，中間是牽涉到經費的問題，對不對？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:07:00.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:07:38.620000+08:00","text":"最重要的是，我要問一下院長，過去蔡政府的時候，曾經對於我們能源的配比有20%、30%跟50%這樣的計畫，雖然到2026年的時候，火力發電占比已經達81.3%，完全就是已經符合你當初所設定的規定，目前為止，再生能源的缺口還缺了差不多是7.3%的缺口，我們在ART的談判當中，我們也承諾在2025年到2029年的時候，我們要促進採購美國的天然氣，還有相關的電力，大概700億美金，這樣是不是我們要增加對於天然氣的依賴？","quality":0.642},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:07:39.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:07:46.043000+08:00","text":"所以蔡政府提出來是20%、30%跟50%，請問賴政府所提出的部分，配比會是多少？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:07:46.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:07:51.365000+08:00","text":"我們會把天然氣的部分再跟它調整，現在我們希望今年2026年就能夠達到20%。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:07:54.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:07:56.223000+08:00","text":"天然氣達到20%？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:07:56.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:07:56.763000+08:00","text":"目前有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:07:57.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:07.509000+08:00","text":"我現在是說火力全開，火力占比已經81.3%了，燃煤26.6%，然後燃氣是53.3%了，所以你目前為止整個火力已經81.3%了。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:07.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:12.292000+08:00","text":"我現在只問，如果核能加進來，你這整個的配比會是如何？","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:12.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:18.195000+08:00","text":"我們過去朗朗上口20%、30%、50%，那麼現在你主政的地方，它的配比會是多少？","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:18.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:20.236000+08:00","text":"可不可以讓我們有這樣子的一個概念？","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:20.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:31.812000+08:00","text":"因為核能的再運轉目前還是在一個程序進行當中，誰都不知道有沒有可能全部都再運轉，因為它還要提出自主安全檢查，自主安全檢查能不能……","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:32.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:37.334000+08:00","text":"所以在2027年、2028年的預估，我們目前都還沒有做這樣的一個估算就對了？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:37.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:40.275000+08:00","text":"我們還是依照原來的，現在20%、30%會調整，50%是不變的。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:42.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:43.137000+08:00","text":"什麼時候調整？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:44.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:45.240000+08:00","text":"調整的比例是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:45.240000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:46.240000+08:00","text":"大概多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:46.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:54.151000+08:00","text":"就是等到自主安全檢查如果通過，然後可以重新運轉那時候，這個目標我們當然會做適度的調整。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:54.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:56.134000+08:00","text":"核的部分可能也要增加進去了……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:56.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:08:57.134000+08:00","text":"因為它已經延役了，假設啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:08:56.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:00.680000+08:00","text":"所以很清楚地讓我們大家知道能源的配比是如何。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:00.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:01.680000+08:00","text":"好，還是能源的問題，我們高雄的興達電廠，因為部長也特別提到，戰爭如果繼續拉長，我們4月可能就要啟動燃煤備用機組的意思就是，我們就有可能火力要全開了，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:01.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:01.360000+08:00","text":"目前不會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:01.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:02.360000+08:00","text":"目前不會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:02.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:03.360000+08:00","text":"好，我們也希望……","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:01.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:02.401000+08:00","text":"對，3月、4月，我剛才講了，已經都調度完成。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:23.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:48.809000+08:00","text":"調度完成，但是我還是要特別為我們高雄來問一下，我們高雄是六都溫室氣體排放的第一名，說實在的，興達電廠是高雄人的一個夢魘，雖然2023年的時候，除役的是一號機、二號機，去年大概是三號機，但是都被轉成緊急備用的機組，雖然民間的團體都希望不要是備用，他們希望是永久除役。","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:49.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:51.251000+08:00","text":"最主要我為什麼要問這個問題？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:51.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:59.118000+08:00","text":"因為去年時，不是停電時間，一號、二號機也是偷偷開機，都還不是在固定的時間……","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:59.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:09:59.418000+08:00","text":"沒有偷偷啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:09:59.418000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:10:01.340000+08:00","text":"那個是法律允許的。好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:10:01.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:10:44.038000+08:00","text":"經濟部部長特別告訴我們是在試驗，是做例行的點火試驗，但是你也不能否認一號機在去年曾經發生爆炸事故，所以我也要為我們的居民，特別是北高雄的居民發聲，他們長期忍受這樣一個所謂的空污，你說要換新的，結果現在你還是給我們舊的、壞掉的要拿來燒，然後地方最不平的是，台電告訴他們這都已經除役了，所以沒有回饋金，也沒有補償金，但居民認為雖然除役了，可是還是緊急備用，他們要吸不好的空氣，又沒有錢可以領，對居民來說，其實會有很多怨言，甚至連陳市長也都要求台電要來重新評估，部長，你同不同意？","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:10:44.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:10:53.707000+08:00","text":"是，報告委員，事實上，尤其是最近幾年，高雄的產業發展非常熱絡，我想你也知道，所以的確用電量是增加……對啦！","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:10:54.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:05.618000+08:00","text":"但是每個人每次都說AI需要用電，AI就是要用電，但重點是那時候台電本來有二期更新改建計畫，要新增兩部新的燃氣機組，這不錯，對不對？對。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:05.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:09.001000+08:00","text":"然後跟我們說舊的要陸續汰換，但現在又出現說五部舊燃料機組要到2037年……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:09.001000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:12.454000+08:00","text":"燃氣，那是燃氣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:12.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:15.907000+08:00","text":"燃氣喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:15.907000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:19.360000+08:00","text":"燃氣、燃氣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:19.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:22.813000+08:00","text":"2037年才會除役，還要11年耶！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:22.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:27.697000+08:00","text":"對，因為它在2023年有更新整個組件，所以排放的污染物已經下降50%……唉唷！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:28.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:31.020000+08:00","text":"下降滿多，但還是在那個地方11年，最主要是有很多……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:31.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:34.263000+08:00","text":"燃氣的話，CO2排放是比較少，現在就是把氧化物也下降……對啦！","quality":0.48},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:34.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:46.651000+08:00","text":"但是我告訴你，居民會反對的原因，是舊機組運轉超過25年，然後你們每次都跟他們說AI、AI，他們在那邊「哀」啊，對不對？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:46.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:52.755000+08:00","text":"大家都在那邊「哀」，最重要的是你說要延役11年，這樣有沒有公然違反對於環評的承諾？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:53.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:11:53.515000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:11:54.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:05.952000+08:00","text":"報告委員，新的一號機跟新的二、三號機，像一號機已經開始上線，新的二、三號機也開始要接受調度……","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:05.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:07.354000+08:00","text":"是，所以我就……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:07.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:10.198000+08:00","text":"至於其他的，只是當作一個緊急備用而已。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:11.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:36.358000+08:00","text":"所以我就說，因為你告訴大家說要延，然後就延，原本大家所認知的，以為馬上就有新的，結果是又要延，對居民來講其實是很難接受的，他們都很老實的相信你們會先建後拆，以為只要忍到2026年就可以退場，現在你突然一句話說為了AI，他們要重新來，他們也很擔心髒空氣沒有辦法忍耐很久嘛！","quality":0.748},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:37.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:41.841000+08:00","text":"不會，不會，有關於所謂的污染物，會有總量管制，絕對不會超過。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:41.841000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:43.042000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:43.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:53.207000+08:00","text":"好，部長，我們就是希望你能夠公開承諾，給我們一個拆除計畫，然後要落實除役、透明監督、合理補償，這合理嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:54.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:55.611000+08:00","text":"對，我們就按照這個來做……是嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:56.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:57.672000+08:00","text":"你要讓居民放心，所以你要給我們……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:57.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:58.472000+08:00","text":"報告委員，新的機組會先上來，舊的機組就讓它有一定的時間延續備用而已。","quality":0.645},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:58.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:12:59.453000+08:00","text":"好，一定的時間，那給我們一個拆除計畫，院長，給我們一個拆除計畫的時程，時間定出來，大家比較放心，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.435},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:12:59.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:00.453000+08:00","text":"好的、好的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:00.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:00.434000+08:00","text":"這個很合理嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:00.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:00.574000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:00.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:08.408500+08:00","text":"當然、當然。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:08.408500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:16.243000+08:00","text":"可以、可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:16.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:16.484000+08:00","text":"這個可以嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:16.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:32.961000+08:00","text":"給我們一個拆除計畫，像臺中一樣，不要到時候等到2026年，你又跟我們說要11年，大家看到這個數字是很敏感的，你後面再講說有換到新的什麼，都不足以補償該補償的，所以我還是要替我們北高雄沿岸的居民說一聲，這樣可以嗎？好的。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:33.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:35.701000+08:00","text":"回饋金可以的話，就是這樣子。來！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:35.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:13:37.342000+08:00","text":"我們還是一句話，回到中油的問題。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:13:37.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:14:09.996000+08:00","text":"中油負債現在已經破兆，院長，這不是我講的，這是審計部的報告，因為負債太多，113年已經到1兆2,000萬了，負債比超過92%，所以連買原油都要付現，然後我們還要編千億擴充產能，但是現在又開始有人提出來了，這也是審計部的審核意見，審計部告訴我們，因為新四輕在林園，對不對？","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:14:11.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:14:14.021000+08:00","text":"他說目前是處在土壤液化高潛勢區。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:14:16.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:14:41.114000+08:00","text":"院長、部長，你們看一下，最重要的是目前全球產能過剩，而過剩的危機將延續到119年，而且我們還有碳排與共識落差，過去你們說要做這樣一個事情，因為預計碳排會增加93.3萬噸，所以你們說核定前會跟高雄市政府達成碳排共識，但審計部說去年4月時還沒有達成共識，請問現在有沒有共識？","quality":0.53},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:14:41.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:14:44.335000+08:00","text":"這要經過我們高雄市政府的同意，現在有沒有共識？","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:14:45.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:14:49.898000+08:00","text":"我們的承諾就是，雖然它乙烯的預計量增加了，但是整個排放量，因為新四輕而不會增加。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:15:03.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:15:05.688000+08:00","text":"雖然它的量增加了，但它用的是最新的技術嘛！","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:15:06.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:15:10.792000+08:00","text":"現在用最新的技術也不過是把93.3萬噸降到70萬噸嘛，對不對？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:15:10.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:15:11.733000+08:00","text":"把它降到70萬噸嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:15:12.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:15:37.793000+08:00","text":"但重點還是有很多人特別提到，因為你堅持擴產乙烯的產能到全球過剩，但是中油到目前為止，還是希望把60萬噸變成100萬噸，這樣產生出來的只能做一些塑膠，或者能夠做到一些比較……大家比較關切的就是你有沒有辦法像中鋼一樣，能夠做高值化的處理，這是我們希望能夠在產業上來做的部分。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:15:38.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:15:40.594000+08:00","text":"中鋼到目前為止都在往這方面去做努力喔，可是……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:15:41.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:15:44.777000+08:00","text":"升級是一定要做的事情，我們是持續在做啦！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:15:45.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:15:59.215000+08:00","text":"對，我們當然希望你不要每次都做那些毛利很少的，我們也希望能夠把它煉成像實驗室等級的、論「克」來賣的，然後也有高純度的、半導體專用的化學物質，這樣才符合我們所謂高值化的一個目標嘛！","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:15:59.215000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:00.803667+08:00","text":"提供乙烯給下游，下游才有機會去做高值化。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:00.803667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:02.392333+08:00","text":"是，但也還是一句話，對不起，我剛剛沒有問到那個部分，我們現在跟高雄市政府的共識目前是達到了嗎？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:02.392333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:03.981000+08:00","text":"所以到目前為止可以讓新四輕就這個部分……114年4月的時候還沒有共識，現在跟我們高雄市政府有共識了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:03.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:06.223000+08:00","text":"我們有跟高雄市政府談過，關於將來如何提升它新的效能，這個也是一個進步。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:06.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:38.808000+08:00","text":"我想跟委員報告，我們很感謝國營事業單位，中油、台電以及台水長期都要接受很多的政策，必須把這個價錢都壓得很低，尤其是這一次的中油，純然是戰爭的關係，否則它不應該如此……","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:38.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:44.616000+08:00","text":"是啦，我就說嘛，它本來有80億的盈餘，但到目前為止因為這樣子，又沒有辦法了。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:44.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:48.220000+08:00","text":"是，純然是戰爭的關係，所以將來我們如何在財務上給予協助，這是必要的。","quality":0.567},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:48.220000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:49.220000+08:00","text":"是，但是我們也希望……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:48.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:16:54.224000+08:00","text":"另外關於產能，我們也必須要有自主的韌性，國內要夠、下游要供得夠，才能整個提升。","quality":0.559},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:16:54.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:17:18.334000+08:00","text":"是啦，院長，這個大家都無庸置疑，我現在所提出的質疑並不是你不能弄新四輕，而是你必須要說服環團、說服我們的里民，還要說服非常多的單位，最主要是就碳排的這個層面來說，還包括中油的財務狀況，有沒有辦法再承接起目前新的技術而造成一個所謂效能的影響，我覺得這才是我們的一個共同最重要的方向。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:17:18.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:17:24.884000+08:00","text":"而且如果新四輕可以這樣子，對我們的碳排可以降低的話，那我就要請問，為什麼不從新三輕來做一個示範的作用？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:17:25.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:17:26.486000+08:00","text":"為什麼要從新四輕開始？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:17:26.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:17:29.731000+08:00","text":"為什麼不從新三輕開始來做這樣的事情呢？部長。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:17:30.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:17:36.479000+08:00","text":"因為四輕的部分已經營運到期了，就當初來講，它有一些更新的需要。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:17:37.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:17:42.824000+08:00","text":"所以我就說嘛，碳排的部分不用等到新四輕，其實你可以考慮就新三輕的部分來做這樣的一個處理。","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:17:44.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:01.183000+08:00","text":"總而言之，院長剛剛所提到的那個目標，我們大家都無庸置疑，都會……我們地方也很感謝這些國營的單位，但我還是要提，一個能源政策要走得遠、走得長，希望現在能用科學數據來做，而不是像過去一樣，永遠都是說不通的。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:01.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:15.558000+08:00","text":"院長，我現在是給你一個肯定，你終於可以扭轉這個部分，讓我們跟世界趨勢的走向是一樣的，但是有關於中油、有關於碳排的問題、有關於它財務黑洞的問題，這點是我們都要特別指出來的，了解吧？","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:16.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:22.702000+08:00","text":"接下來我要進入「土方之亂」了，不曉得誰可以就「土方之亂」來協助院長做這樣的回應？","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:23.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:24.263000+08:00","text":"內政部部長好不好？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:25.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:26.724000+08:00","text":"來，請我們的內政部部長跟我們的環境部，謝謝。","quality":0.474},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:26.724000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:28.114500+08:00","text":"麻煩請內政部部長備詢。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:28.114500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:29.505000+08:00","text":"環境部備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:29.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:47.218000+08:00","text":"有關這個土方的部分，2026年我們有土方之亂，我想這是全國性的問題，當然美濃大峽谷有一些是被盜採後回填廢棄物的問題，內政部也已經強制要求要用GPS，還有包括電子聯單，這個部分內政部已經非常積極在做了。","quality":0.573},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:47.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:18:57.308000+08:00","text":"但是無可否認的，到目前為止，關於這個處理的量能還是不足的，然後清運的成本也暴漲，這是存在的一個事實。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:18:58.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:19:21.229000+08:00","text":"我想就這個部分來說的話，因為土方之亂真的不是最近才開始，長期以來都是，現在我們就聽到非常多的抱怨，我想請問一下，就目前來說，營建剩餘土石方的處理方案已經超過30年了，定位不是很清楚，也不是法律位階，然後就政策來說，要跨部會協調。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:19:21.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:19:30.836000+08:00","text":"記得去年3月18日的時候，監察院曾經做過這樣的一個糾正，請問院長，到目前為止我們做的方式是什麼？","quality":0.585},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:19:31.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:19:47.469000+08:00","text":"我還是先把它講完好了，因為被糾正的那個時候，國土署有回應，他說環境部要把廢清法納入，要來做全國性的修法，請問現在的廢清法到目前為止有修正嗎？","quality":0.547},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:19:48.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:19:53.515000+08:00","text":"而且那個時候國土署說環境部要修，環境部有修嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:19:54.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:20:07.549000+08:00","text":"而且我也某種程度非常贊同環境部長說要推循環經濟推動法，你認為不是每個東西都是垃圾，好好的處理也可以變成好的部分。","quality":0.66},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:20:08.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:20:10.772000+08:00","text":"請問這兩個最重要的法，你們有做任何的處理嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-17T15:20:11.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:20:29.161000+08:00","text":"報告委員，所有的土石方，臺灣幾十年來從來沒有認真的處理，這一次我們是認真的去面對這個事情，這個法律的部分，我們經過了努力，在行政院內部已經開過會，差不多到最後一個階段了，我們的確也在進行修正當中。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:20:31.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:20:45.177000+08:00","text":"我還是必須要說，你看，你那時候被糾正的時候，內政、環保、法務三大部長大動作的開記者會，去年5月27日說要有四大政策去面對；但是不好意思！","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:20:45.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:13.450000+08:00","text":"你們全部開完大陣仗的會議之後，同樣去年，12月底又再一次告訴大家做得還不夠；而且你看，院長，你也可以看一下，就像剛剛環境部部長所提到的，這麼久以來，難得你們三位部長全部站在一起了，可是到今年此時此刻，土方的問題還是一樣存在、廢棄物的問題還是存在，營建單位叫得不得了！","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:14.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:16.352000+08:00","text":"到底這個問題目前該怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:16.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:20.114000+08:00","text":"你不覺得應該有一個跨部會的單位好好來把這些問題處理好嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:20.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:25.357000+08:00","text":"而且部長所承諾的那兩大修法目前也還是看不到，什麼時候推出來？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:25.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:31.140000+08:00","text":"每個委員都有提出他們的修正版本，可是我們還是沒有看到行政院的對案，這什麼時候可以來告訴我們？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:31.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:32.761000+08:00","text":"該怎麼樣來解決？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:33.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:49.676000+08:00","text":"委員，如果你能夠了解，也知道我們現在每週對於土方開的會議，你就會知道，它已經有一個具體的方向了，包括它的最終去處、包括它的暫置場、土置場，以及包括我們現在在行政區裡面的異地暫置，三個方式同時都在進行……","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:49.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:50.937000+08:00","text":"好，現在院長提的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:50.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:21:57.903000+08:00","text":"港區會有港區的最終去處，臺北港等等也會有它的暫置場，這個都有方法在做。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:21:58.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:01.426000+08:00","text":"好，院長，我就是符合你剛剛所說的，我非常的關注，我也知道你們在做哪一些事情。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:01.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:05.750000+08:00","text":"好的，現在問題又來了，我們是不是也可以請農業部部長，這個時候也應該站出來了。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:06.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:27.029000+08:00","text":"你們協調了老半天，內政部國土署今年宣布要擴增農地改良來做為土方的去化，這個時候有很多民間團體就開始非常的反彈，因為他們都認為2021年農委會那時候就完全禁止任何的土方進到農地，因為他認為……","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:27.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:28.270000+08:00","text":"時間暫停一下吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:28.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:31.954000+08:00","text":"各位，我想農業部部長要備詢，換一位部長請回，好嗎？什麼？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:33.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:39.298000+08:00","text":"就是農業部部長現在要備詢，你問到農業部的事情，農業部部長要備詢，可不可以請劉部長回去……","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:39.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:42.280000+08:00","text":"可以，農業部部長和環境部部長。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:42.280000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:43.460000+08:00","text":"內政部劉部長請回，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:43.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:46.962000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我們就請農業部，環境部還是要在。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:47.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:47.962000+08:00","text":"環境部部長請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:49.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:51.324000+08:00","text":"內政部部長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:51.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:53.185000+08:00","text":"內政部部長留下來備詢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:53.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:22:54.225000+08:00","text":"內政部部長可以請回，請農業部。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:22:54.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:23:00.120000+08:00","text":"劉部長請回，謝謝，農業部部長請備詢，時間繼續。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:23:00.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:23:01.963000+08:00","text":"我不曉得這個臺子只能站三個人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:23:02.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:23:06.909000+08:00","text":"我們硬體的建築是這樣，而且畫面不好看，這些部長不能像小學生一樣，他們回去要領導各部會的……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:23:06.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:23:07.030000+08:00","text":"好，了解。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:23:07.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:23:07.931000+08:00","text":"畫面不好看，好嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:23:08.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:23:08.071000+08:00","text":"謝謝訓導長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:23:08.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:23:08.592000+08:00","text":"我們尊重，好不好？謝謝。好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:23:13.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:23:44.906000+08:00","text":"就像院長所提的，我們每一次都非常的關切，我剛剛提到的，內政部國土署已經提出了農地改良這樣一個問題了，但是每一次都被卡住，當然過去2021年農委會（不是現在這個部長，是之前農委會的時候）就有這樣的條例，一個施行條例幾乎是把B3和B4的去化途徑全部封死了，院長，這就是為什麼目前為止處理老半天，那個問題如果沒有辦法做處理的話，這個問題還是卡在那個地方。","quality":0.675},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:23:45.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:12.583000+08:00","text":"而且你剛剛所提到的，這個要填海，以高雄港為例的話，同樣來回應剛剛院長的問題，我們目前規劃要收容南部的廢土，就這個工程來說，目前要進入二階段的評估，因為我們考慮到填海裡面有海洋，很害怕當中會造成環境上的污染，我們的南科二階評估要21個月，現在這個填海造陸進入第二期環境評估的話，是不是更久？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:14.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:25.534000+08:00","text":"而且我們現在幾乎沒有空間可以來放置多餘的土方，光是在去化的部分，卡在農業部的一個條例當中，就讓很多事情沒有辦法來做澈底的解決。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:25.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:27.558000+08:00","text":"院長，我很關切，但是沒有解決啊！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:27.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:31.245000+08:00","text":"填海造陸還不失是一個最終的處理方法……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:31.245000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:32.245000+08:00","text":"是，現在怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:32.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:42.429000+08:00","text":"我們今天就是調查全國的土地，可以開始做的，就是要進入環評，就盡早進入環評，我們為的是國土的保育、為的是很多土地的利用。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:42.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:45.813000+08:00","text":"好，我了解，所以高雄港的部分，你可不可以用專案的方法來處理？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:46.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:49.076000+08:00","text":"你如果用這個方法來，這真的不知道等到什麼時候，已經沒有地方可以用了。","quality":0.581},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:49.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:56.444000+08:00","text":"所以我們還有一個暫置場，先行啟用其他的暫置場，在還沒有完全可以最終去化的時候。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:56.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:24:58.605000+08:00","text":"為什麼請農業部部長過來？","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:24:58.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:25:34.616000+08:00","text":"就是因為一個細則、一個條例，幾乎把大家所有可能考慮到的去化途徑堵死了，民團也很擔心，現在地方就是覺得有太多的法規、細則沒有很清楚，所以當規定沒有很清楚，又有這麼多東西都要拿去堆置的時候，院長，我告訴你，法規不夠清楚，很多時候你會看到大家就是會違法，然後地方政府也只能用加重處罰的方法，問題還是沒有辦法解決。","quality":0.734},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:25:34.616000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:25:35.616000+08:00","text":"法規剛剛彭部長已經說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-17T15:25:34.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:25:35.537000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們已經在進行當中。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-17T15:25:35.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:25:47.568000+08:00","text":"另外，委員剛才說到循環經濟，現在有很多房子都好好拆，好好拆就沒有廢棄物，所以我們鼓勵好好拆，當然，好好拆是每一個人都要做的事情，也希望委員可以支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:25:48.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:07.460000+08:00","text":"我現在只是希望院長找一個政委，好好把這個部分協調，我剛剛說有被堵死的、有被混淆的，還有很多的法令是不清楚的，我知道你們在做，但是顯然目前遇到一些卡關，這些卡關讓此時此刻還是有很多土方的問題沒有辦法解決。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:07.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:11.022000+08:00","text":"說真的，我們遇到很多的卡關，所以我們一一在克服。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:11.022000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:12.143000+08:00","text":"什麼時候可以解決？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:12.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:16.246000+08:00","text":"現在3月，到5月就會有比較十足的進展，5月份有一些土地會釋放出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:16.246000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:17.246000+08:00","text":"5月份土地會釋放出來，剛剛說高雄港也是在你們調解的範圍當中，希望有專案的方法，如果完全照過去的環評方法，真的沒有辦法解決燃眉之急，去化的系統還有放置的部分，院長你說5月份可以得到比較多的改善？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:17.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:18.132000+08:00","text":"3月會有一部分，5月就會有更多的土地可以來使用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:18.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:23.069000+08:00","text":"好，因為已經……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:23.069000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:28.006000+08:00","text":"但這個有很多地方也需要地方政府協助，他必須發很多的執照，我們正在跟地方政府，包括臺北、新北……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:28.006000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:32.943000+08:00","text":"我們地方政府的人力、各方面真的是非常有限。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:32.943000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:37.880000+08:00","text":"但是它要發很多的執照，包括臺北、新北、臺中……","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:37.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:26:41.024000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實去年的時候，六都都有承諾要一起來做這個事情，我們中央很努力，也希望地方政府也要努力來配合。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:26:57.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:27:02.246000+08:00","text":"我覺得那個法規要弄清楚，B3、B4到底有沒有辦法再回填回去？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:27:02.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:27:04.709000+08:00","text":"光是把這個部分規範清楚就好。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-03-17T15:27:05.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:27:16.500000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，農發條例裡面相關的規範，其實農地的土壤改良是因為農地的需要，不能為了處理土石而開放農地。當然。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-03-17T15:27:16.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:27:21.862000+08:00","text":"所以我們跟環境部在討論的時候就有討論很詳細的規範。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:27:21.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:27:41.108000+08:00","text":"部長，我知道，我們開過很多公聽會，農業部都要派代表，他光是搬出你們這個條例來，大家就閉嘴了，因為你們這個法規如果不解除的話，其實後面非常多的方式是沒有辦法來做的，你們的職員都非常盡忠職守，可是也會讓很多的討論遇到卡關，這點我還是必須要指出來。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-03-17T15:27:41.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:27:49.131000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，其實在院裡面，包括院長主持相關部會的會議，就是為了解決法規競合的部分……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:27:49.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:28:03.915000+08:00","text":"是，很需要跨單位的協調，所以我們就殷殷期待，包括建築業，還有很多的民團都在殷殷期待，你們可以弄出更標準、更規範的方法，讓大家有個依循的目標，這樣比較好做，對不對？","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:28:04.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:28:09.980000+08:00","text":"院長已經說5月的時候可以讓整個問題的解決看到很大的進展，這樣沒錯吧？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:28:10.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:28:17.086000+08:00","text":"而且內政部跟其他公會還有產業也都進行當面溝通，聽取他們的意見、解決他們的問題。好啦！","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:28:18.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:28:18.827000+08:00","text":"5月，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:28:19.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:28:24.051000+08:00","text":"院長，我們就看到5月，因為目前這些問題還存在，農業部部長請回座。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:28:24.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:28:45.132000+08:00","text":"最後我還是要幫我們高雄的螺絲業問一個問題，院長，你上次去的時候，我知道你已經去好幾次了，然後經濟部龔部長，你從秘書長到部長都還是一樣，都到我們高雄跟螺絲業者見面，第一次去的時候我也在現場，你那時候是秘書長，現在是部長，但是不好意思，問題還是沒解決。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:28:46.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:28:53.860000+08:00","text":"你看，我們上次有非常多人來陳情，他們說面臨12年來最大的寒冬，現在是做四休三。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:28:55.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:07.810000+08:00","text":"我想部長跟院長都很了解我們的螺絲業，當初你們說是我們高雄之光等等之類的，沒有問題，但是當他們遇到這麼大的寒冬的時候，他們希望能夠爭取232條款的豁免，有沒有機會？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:07.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:08.911000+08:00","text":"有沒有辦法脫鈎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:08.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:12.033000+08:00","text":"目前談的條件有沒有機會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:12.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:12.613000+08:00","text":"ART已經談定了，比較困難。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:13.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:13.994000+08:00","text":"談定，然後呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:14.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:17.176000+08:00","text":"現在已經談定了，所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:18.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:21.684000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在螺絲業的關稅要被扣百分之多少？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:23.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:24.588000+08:00","text":"就是232一般規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:25.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:25.869000+08:00","text":"怎麼樣，百分之多少？是50%。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:25.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:25.889000+08:00","text":"50%就是……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:25.889000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:26.889000+08:00","text":"全世界都一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:26.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:26.309000+08:00","text":"全世界都一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:26.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:26.850000+08:00","text":"就是很難嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:27.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:28.572000+08:00","text":"50%對他們來說真的是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:28.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:45.872000+08:00","text":"我們跟扣件業的業者談過，當然他們也需要很大的幫忙，不過現在都希望他們升級轉型，專業性的扣件價錢就會比較好。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:46.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:53.543000+08:00","text":"每個人都知道，要做專業的扣件，他們也在做升級，但是目前為止已經倒一半了，可能已經不知道倒到哪裡去了。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:54.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:56.847000+08:00","text":"環境部長可以先回座了，謝謝，不好意思，彭部長。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:56.847000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:29:57.847000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:29:57.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:10.599000+08:00","text":"現在比較好了，今年相對於去年來講，現在減班休息的人數已經剩下三千八百多人，相對於去年的八千多人，已經少非常多了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:11.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:17.926000+08:00","text":"說實在地，不要說是我，我相信所有高雄的立委上來都會非常關切這樣的問題，我們也承受非常多螺絲業的關心……","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:17.926000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:18.926000+08:00","text":"我們還是會持續關心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:18.926000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:19.926000+08:00","text":"然後2月9日你下去的時候，還特別告訴大家說，我們現在關稅談定之後，未來你有餘力能夠來處理螺絲業的問題。對。","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:19.926000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:20.926000+08:00","text":"你的說法好像是把它放在下一個階段來處理，你讓我們螺絲業感覺自己是「細漢」的，你們都把高科技放在第一順位去做……","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:18.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:50.048000+08:00","text":"不是，您誤解了，那時候我們ART談完了，談完以後，因為其他的產業有些降到15%、有些降到25%等等……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:50.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:52.109000+08:00","text":"那你為什麼不把它當作第一個產業？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:52.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:54.391000+08:00","text":"你為什麼不把它當第一項順位一起談呢？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:54.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:30:57.154000+08:00","text":"我們會把其他的資源移多一點給扣件業，意思是這樣子。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:30:58.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:31:03.579000+08:00","text":"所以你還是把它放在後面，你為什麼不在主流談定的時候，把它納入第一項目來談呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:31:03.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:31:05.481000+08:00","text":"它本來就是第一順位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:31:05.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:31:07.943000+08:00","text":"如果是第一順位，還談到現在的螺絲業被扣這麼多，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:31:07.943000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:31:09.324000+08:00","text":"這個是全世界現在的統一標準。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:31:09.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:31:43.208000+08:00","text":"目前為止你也做出非常多的補助方式，你那時候提出460億這樣的補助方法，但是不好意思，因為時間快到了，我還是給部長跟院長看一下後面那個階段，你看目前為止我們所執行的方式，460億看起來是非常好，但是預算執行率目前不到三成，所以我們就在想，到底是你的門檻太高，還是你的行政程序太緩慢？","quality":0.553},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:31:43.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:31:45.269000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為那個執行的時間是兩年多。沒！","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:31:46.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:31:55.051000+08:00","text":"還是一樣，大家都一一叫苦，很多人講說，在門檻還有行政流程上，是否給人家能夠……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-03-17T15:31:56.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:31:58.592000+08:00","text":"其實來申請跟通過的比例是超過百分之六十到七十。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:31:59.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:08.878000+08:00","text":"可是從整個執行來說，我現在只是反映所有業者的聲音，你那時候提出的計畫當中，還要他提出研發計畫，還有什麼其他的計畫，很多人都覺得這個門檻對他們來說還是有些困難的……","quality":0.432},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:08.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:11.375333+08:00","text":"這個執行的時間還是算短啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:11.375333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:13.872667+08:00","text":"我們是提出業者的聲音，把這個流程弄得更簡便，好不好？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:13.872667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:16.370000+08:00","text":"而且它必須符合我們一定的條件，但來申請的案件比例是高的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:16.370000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:18.867333+08:00","text":"院長，條件可以再寬鬆一點，大家要溺水了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:18.867333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:21.364667+08:00","text":"條件都在這個裡面了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:21.364667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:23.862000+08:00","text":"要溺水了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:23.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:26.359333+08:00","text":"好不好？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:26.359333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:28.856667+08:00","text":"我們再來檢討，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:28.856667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:31.354000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯志恩委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","quality":0.208},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:31.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:37.020000+08:00","text":"下面劉建國委員質詢之後將會休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後請林岱樺委員準備。","quality":0.414},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-17T15:32:38.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-17T15:32:40.184000+08:00","text":"現在請劉建國委員質詢。","quality":0.3}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}