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我是引用你的说法"},{"start":133.069,"end":151.314,"text":"我也试图让你有澄清希望人家不要去扭曲你的意思这个事情我是绝对反对的我当然也反对啊但是我只是来告诉我们不要正面这个我只是告诉你说目前学界对于你这样的一个说法丢脸这个说法他们是有意见的我只是告诉你连我也丢脸不是只有他"},{"start":152.094,"end":173.506,"text":"所以你现在已经到了一个学界的程度里面我们就来看一下这个部分来说以基础科学来说完全同意你的这个部分来到我们一直强调基础研究是非常的重要基础研究跟应用研究跟技术发展来说的话基础研究其实在这个比例上面其实还是低于其他两个这个层面"},{"start":174.329,"end":191.672,"text":"那很多人我们基础研究我们台湾的学者的数量是在减少的是我们的经费年年在增加所以每个人平均得到的研发的经费都在增加当中那目前为止论的数目不断在减少你觉得这个问题在哪里"},{"start":192.233,"end":208.21,"text":"是人口在减少啊还是我们对基础研究投入的这个学者专家会越来越少因为整个国家的政策对于所谓的技术还有对应用科学里面来说他们认为可以获得的比率比较高会不会是因为这个缘故"},{"start":209.062,"end":232.625,"text":"我們的學者平均得到的計畫補助的件數在提高得到的計畫每個計畫補助的金額都在提高當中但是我們的博士生在減少委員都知道了所以我們未來在這基礎研究部分裡面有沒有辦法跟其他應用或在這個跟所謂的技術的層面裡面等量其關這是我們要的因為我們都認為基礎研究是一切研究的一個基礎"},{"start":233.186,"end":251.175,"text":"我們只是不想讓他這個論文書不但在減少的過程當中讓投入基礎研究的人會越來越少這是本席質疑的重點我覺得主委我剛說是抱頭我現在是試圖讓你有一個可以澄清的一個機會不要扭曲我的想法同樣都是來自一個學界我不會認為你說論文是如何所以說你不要用這樣的態度來面對本席我覺得這不是討論事情的方式我還是強調"},{"start":256.337,"end":272.084,"text":"不能只用论文的数量我也同意啊因为太多学者专家太多太多亲近的人员因为论文数不够让他们在未来学术界当中受到非常大多很多没有办法这点我完全同意啊所以在我任职的学校"},{"start":273.206,"end":289.243,"text":"我盡量再修改辦法用比較公平的評量當然是啊我們也認為應該用多元的評量的方法嘛這個我們得到一個共識嘛我只認為說大家這種這件事情上面不需要再說什麼不斷在評論我是讓你有誠信的你反而誤解我的意思因為他們沒有改我才會講啊他們沒有改什麼"},{"start":289.924,"end":306.018,"text":"改這個憑良的辦法那你現在當國會主委你再給大家做這個部分你改的部分裡面有沒有一直得到所謂成效上面的改進嘛現在就是慢慢引導這個是需要時間的國科會已經改了因為國科會也是以前也曾經使用"},{"start":306.578,"end":330.259,"text":"是五年来之后你如果说是部分你要把过去五年你的paper的产量弄因为你可以加权多少以至于有很多的人在这个过程里面因为过去的学术量不够让他每次申请国科会的时候都受到非常大的阻碍这是事实嘛对不对过去是这样嘛这个评量全部也都是全国的学者一起在互评嘛是啊所以国科会已经把这个规则已经改了我们去年就改了"},{"start":330.879,"end":340.07,"text":"去年嘛 對不對嘛所以我們就來看看嘛你未來這個部分裡面有沒有因為這樣的一個改變讓更多的人來去看待嘛這是我們共同的期待嘛這點共識沒有問題嘛 對不對我們就花時間我們就看看會不會改變"},{"start":345.856,"end":368.106,"text":"所以说大家都知道你要投好球但是很多话讲的太直我觉得这就是个抱头我们来看一下这个第三园区这个有关于我们高雄的部分因为这属于南科的这个范围当中目前来说我们是不是有已经很确定我们的P6台积电的扩敞因为我们看到这个南科有一个扩敞的一个计划很显然很像是P6是要在南子区来建厂嘛"},{"start":369.706,"end":388.833,"text":"P6台積電已經提出它的需求現在高雄市政府也很努力我們都很希望能夠在這個地方但是還是要經過我們二階環評當然是 而且最重要的是我們跟水跟電的問題因為那時候為了要友善環境也符合你剛剛說的永續所以我們希望能夠用到再生水的這個層面"},{"start":389.773,"end":417.191,"text":"但是我们检视一下目前来说整个再生水的这个层面来说平均大概10万CMD嘛那我们也希望高雄市政府也推动的桥头再生水厂的这个层面但是你这样怎么加加减减来说我说实在的这个水如果你在这个P6再进来的话真的是用水上会有很大的一个问题哦以再生水来说的话所以我现在只是问说南科有没有考虑自己能够来盖这个再生水厂"},{"start":417.771,"end":427.637,"text":"報告委員高雄市政府在國會協助之下已經把楠梓的再生水廠也加進來了所以楠梓跟橋頭兩個所以這個水目前來說的話面對P6廠目前這個水量"},{"start":433.84,"end":463.5,"text":"你认为是没有问题然后也不会也不会影响到我们的民生用水吗因为量的那电的部分我们再来看一下因为你可以看得出来台电在过去的时候呢它有供电还有跟需求量这个部分里面他们之前有可是呢在修正完之后目前我没有看到规划用电的需求我没有看到规划因为水跟电是非常重要的所以我们强烈要求这一块也要盯紧因为这一块盯紧的话我们才有办法不然的话没有电目前为止我没有看到这个电的规划"},{"start":463.82,"end":473.291,"text":"沒問題我們對這個部分你一定要來做這樣的一個處理水電的處理大家都希望但是這個水電就重點是不要因為這麼用水用量大度的這個廠影響到民生所以這個要保證絕對是有最後一個我們來問一下有關AI"},{"start":478.857,"end":504.116,"text":"AI的导入我也刚刚也看到了那目前为止我们也经过国际的一个认证包括台湾2号3号跟创建1号目前为止我们在有关于这个建构的大共同的模型算力基础的建设上面这个部分是没有问题的那我想请问目前我们各单位特别是国防部有跟你们讨论要把这个AI应用到这个里面他们的计划当中吗"},{"start":504.841,"end":532.787,"text":"目前目前没有目前没有为什么我要问这个问题因为像现在目前在中东战争当中美国是大力的用他们的算力来去做而且他们建构了非常多的中心但是呢他也常常会变成因为是一个非常的精准的这个层面来说的话所以也让很多人把他当做是一个破坏的一个很大的一个基地因为怕他太过精准然后会会会对他们伊朗的本土造成很大的损害那我们高雄其实也有"},{"start":533.487,"end":544.203,"text":"因應這樣一個需求也有所謂的AI算力的專區那我其實比較擔心在這個民用跟軍用的這個層面AI到底要怎麼樣它的倫理怎麼樣為什麼呢為什麼要提出這個部分因為美國來說的話有一個美國的AI公司叫Anthony Pick"},{"start":549.731,"end":575.55,"text":"因为他目前为止完全的不要让这个这个美国的国防部来跟他们做这样的一个合作所以是川普非常的不高兴他甚至把他当作是一个国家安全构成供应链风险因为他们认为这个AI用在国防还是有它伦理的这个层面所以它会引起国防跟商业的伦理这个层面我们AI基本法已经通过了主委你有没有在这个层面上面去做一些的规范"},{"start":575.99,"end":593.549,"text":"否则把AI放在未来的战争当中其实对人类来说是一个相当大的挑战有没有这样的一个规划我们AI基本法已经通过了对那在AI基本法里面我们没有讨论到这一块我们没有讨论这一块但是我们明确地讲我们政府的这个施政"},{"start":594.834,"end":623.817,"text":"一定要依照这个AI基本法的规范没有我个人认为说你这一块其实还应该再做一些界定因为在全世界当中都已经面临了军事应用跟商业伦理很多人认为说AI把它用在国防特别是在做一个攻击的层面上面是有伦理的问题这是未来可能会发生的所以我说即使是通过但是这方面的拟定跟这方面的未来的一个可能再进去更明确一点否则这个部分来说会造成非常大非常大的一个问题不过国"},{"start":624.697,"end":649.828,"text":"國防的這個議題不在國科會的主政範圍啦這是當然是但是你們在AI的這個部分所以我才剛你課跨部會裡面有沒有來跟你們做更大的一個研商因為這畢竟未來都會是來全面性的來去做這樣子的一個處理跟應用的如果國防部要跟國科會來討論這個事我們會跟所以目前沒有目前沒有那目前AI基本法裡面也還沒有上位要有"},{"start":650.388,"end":673.147,"text":"是否可以广泛的运用目前为止也都还没有做这样的一个规划跟处理目前没有因为AI基本法里面其实是对保障人权是已经很明确的讲出来有七个项目在人权的保障上所以这部分我认为是没有问题的我们就来看看吧不过还是把它放在这个部分因为未来可能你都会应用得到好不好好 谢谢 谢谢委员"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:28:34+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:28:35+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，請吳主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:28:35+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:28:36+08:00","text":"有請吳主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:28:36+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:28:37+08:00","text":"柯委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:28:34.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:28:44.674000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:28:45.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:12.585000+08:00","text":"你自從上任之後，其實對學界也是愛之深責之切，不過你現在很顯然是三罵學界，我們來看一下：第一個，你認為花這麼多錢沒有諾貝爾得主，很丟臉；第二個，你說目前的論文大家都只看數量，按件計酬，也滿丟臉的；第三個，學術界每個人在罵政府投資資源太少，你認為政府做了很多，所以對這種說法很看不起。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:13.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:19.107000+08:00","text":"我知道主委你很想投好球，可是以這種說法來說，真的就是像暴投一樣。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:19.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:33.812000+08:00","text":"你自己也曾經擔任清大副校長、成大副校長，也在南臺科大擔任校長，在當行政主管的時候，你其實是有權力來做這些的改變，你覺得在那個時候你的學校有沒有這些的規想？","quality":0.62},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:34.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:36.673000+08:00","text":"有，在我任內都有改變。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:37.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:38.674000+08:00","text":"你在的時候都有改變？對。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:39.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:46.937000+08:00","text":"所以你到目前為止，接任國科會之後，面對這些問題，你又做了哪一些的改變跟成效？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:47.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:53.720000+08:00","text":"你講的這些話，學術界有一些微詞，你認為有需要做一些修正嗎？","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:55.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:07.431000+08:00","text":"這個方向還是一樣，國科會已經做了很多的改變，我們在所有計畫的申請、獎勵的評量等等是依照這個方向，所有的……","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:08.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:09.012000+08:00","text":"什麼樣的方向？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:10.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:14.655000+08:00","text":"目前來說，你是不要去寫太多的論文數量，不考慮數量、考慮質量……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:14.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:23.471000+08:00","text":"我從來沒有講過不要寫太多論文，不是用論文的數量來評量老師的成就……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:23.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:24.471000+08:00","text":"當然啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:23.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:25.813000+08:00","text":"所以不要扭曲我的意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:25.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:26.813000+08:00","text":"沒有人扭曲啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:26.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:27.813000+08:00","text":"是你這樣的寫法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:26.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:30.636000+08:00","text":"我從來沒有說不要寫太多論文，從來沒有講。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:31.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:34.099000+08:00","text":"我也沒有說你說不要寫太多論文啊！但是……","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:34.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:35.100000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講了！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:35.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:40.184000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:40.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:45.268000+08:00","text":"拜託，我剛剛講的是引據你的一個說法，很多在算論文，像論件計酬，實在丟臉。","quality":0.29},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:45.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:50.830000+08:00","text":"主委，我是引用你的說法，我也試圖讓你澄清，希望人家不要去扭曲你的意思。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:51.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:53.071000+08:00","text":"論件計酬這個事情，我是絕對反對的。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:53.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:54.031000+08:00","text":"我當然也反對啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:54.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:03.853000+08:00","text":"但是我只是在告訴你，我們不要爭辯這個，我只是告訴你說，目前學界對於你這樣一個說法、「丟臉」這個說法，他們是有意見的，我只是告訴你……","quality":0.554},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:04.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:06.094000+08:00","text":"丟臉連我也丟臉，不是只有他，所有的人都丟臉。","quality":0.421},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:06.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:29.230000+08:00","text":"所以你現在已經到了學界的程度，我們就來看一下這個部分，以基礎科學來說，完全同意你的這個部分，我們一直強調基礎研究非常的重要，基礎研究跟應用研究跟技術發展來說的話，基礎研究其實在比例上面還是低於其他兩個層面，然後很多人……","quality":0.663},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:30.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:40.966000+08:00","text":"在基礎研究方面，我們臺灣學者的數量是在減少的，但我們的經費年年在增加，所以每個人平均得到的研發經費都在增加當中。","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:42.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:45.492000+08:00","text":"目前為止，如果你的數目不斷在減少，你覺得這個問題在哪裡？","quality":0.48},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:46.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:48.516000+08:00","text":"是人口在減少啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:48.516000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:50.077500+08:00","text":"人口在減少，還是我們對於基礎……","quality":0.231},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:50.077500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:51.639000+08:00","text":"學生的人數……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:51.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:32:02.190000+08:00","text":"還是我們對於基礎研究投入的學者專家越來越少，因為整個國家的政策對於所謂的技術還有對於應用科學來說，他們認為可以獲得的比率比較高，會不會是因為這個緣故？","quality":0.493},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:32:03.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:32:14.113000+08:00","text":"我們的學者平均得到的計畫補助的件數在提高，得到的計畫每個計畫補助的金額都在提高當中，但是我們的博士生在減少，委員都知道啊。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:32:14.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:32:35.130000+08:00","text":"我了解，是啊，所以我們未來在基礎研究這部分，有沒有辦法跟其他的應用研究或是跟所謂技術層面等量齊觀，這是我們要的，因為我們都認為，基礎研究是一切研究的基礎，我們只是不想讓它的論文數不斷在減少的過程當中，讓投入基礎研究的人會越來越少，這是本席質疑的重點。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:32:35.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:32:41.733000+08:00","text":"我覺得，主委，我剛剛說你是暴投，我現在是試圖讓你有一個可以澄清的機會，不要扭曲我的想法。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:32:41.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:32:45.035000+08:00","text":"我們同樣都是來自學界，我不會認為你說論文是如何，所以你不要用這樣的態度來面對本席，我覺得這不是討論事情的方式。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:32:45.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:32:52.698000+08:00","text":"我還是強調，不能只用論文的數量……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:32:52.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:32:53.438000+08:00","text":"我也同意啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:32:53.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:03.142000+08:00","text":"因為有太多學者專家，太多、太多新進人員，因為論文數不夠，讓他們在未來的學術界當中受到非常大多……很多沒有辦法，這點我完全同意啊。","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:04.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:10.229000+08:00","text":"所以，在我任職的學校，我儘量在修改辦法，用比較公平的評量方式……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:10.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:12.912000+08:00","text":"當然是啊，我們也認為應該用多元的評量方法……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:12.912000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:13.912000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，所以我們國科會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:13.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:14.414000+08:00","text":"這點我們得到一個共識嘛。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:15.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:20.901000+08:00","text":"我只是認為說，大家就這件事情上面不需要再說什麼不斷在逼……我是讓你有澄清的機會，你反而誤解我的意思。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:21.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:22.042000+08:00","text":"因為他們沒有改，我才會講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:22.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:23.243000+08:00","text":"他們沒有改什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:23.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:25.085000+08:00","text":"改這個評量的辦法，我現在在鼓勵……","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:25.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:33.092000+08:00","text":"那你現在當國科會主委，你在給大家做這個部分，你改的部分有沒有得到所謂成效上面的改進嘛？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:33.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:39.998000+08:00","text":"現在就是慢慢引導，這個是需要時間的，國科會已經改了，因為國科會以前也曾經使用……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:40.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:54.330000+08:00","text":"是，五年來你如果說這部分，你要把過去五年你的paper的產量，因為你可以加權多少，以至於有很多的人，在這個過程裡面，因為過去的學術量不夠，讓他每次申請國科會的時候都受到非常大的阻礙，這是事實嘛，對不對？","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:54.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:59.975000+08:00","text":"過去是這樣，這個評量全部也都是全國的學者一起在互評嘛……是啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:00.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:04.239000+08:00","text":"所以國科會已經把這個規則改了，我們去年就改了喔……","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:04.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:05.840000+08:00","text":"去年嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:10.606000+08:00","text":"所以我們就來看看，未來這個部分有沒有因為這樣的改變……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:10.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:11.606000+08:00","text":"好啊，那……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:10.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:13.289000+08:00","text":"讓更多人來去看待，這是我們共同的期待嘛，這點……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:13.289000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:14.289000+08:00","text":"可以啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:13.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:13.549000+08:00","text":"這點共識沒有問題嘛，對不對？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:13.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:14.070000+08:00","text":"那我們就花時間看看會不會改變。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:19.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:24.058000+08:00","text":"是，所以大家都知道你要投好球，但是很多話講得太直，我覺得這就是個暴投。","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:24.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:42.086000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，有關於我們高雄第三園區的部分，因為這個屬於南科的範圍當中，目前來說我們是不是已經很確定我們P6台積電的擴廠，因為我們看到南科有一個擴廠的計畫，很顯然很像是P6要在楠梓區來建廠嘛？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:43.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:46.087000+08:00","text":"P6台積電已經提出他的需求……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:46.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:47.828000+08:00","text":"對，是在？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:47.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:49.508000+08:00","text":"現在高雄市政府也很努力……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:50.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:51.889000+08:00","text":"我們都很希望能夠在這個地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:52.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:55.190000+08:00","text":"但是還是要經過我們二階環評。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:55.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:01.712000+08:00","text":"當然是，而且最重要的是水跟電的問題，因為那時候為了要友善環境，也符合你剛剛說的永續，所以我們希望能夠運用再生水。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:02.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:23.406000+08:00","text":"但是我們檢視一下，目前整個再生水的層面來說，平均大概日產量是10萬CMD，高雄市政府也推動興建橋頭再生水廠，但是你這樣整個加加減減來說，我說實在的，水這個部分，如果P6再進來的話，真的是用水上會有很大的一個問題喔！","quality":0.505},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:23.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:24.627000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:24.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:25.667000+08:00","text":"以再生水來說的話。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:26.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:31.011000+08:00","text":"所以我現在只是問說，南科有沒有考慮自己能夠來蓋再生水廠？","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:31.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:39.716000+08:00","text":"報告委員，在國科會協助之下，高雄市政府已經把楠梓的再生水廠也加進來……","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:39.716000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:40.716000+08:00","text":"也加進來了嘛。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:39.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:40.176000+08:00","text":"所以楠梓跟橋頭兩個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:40.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:41.617000+08:00","text":"所以水這部分，目前來說，面對P6，目前這個水量……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:41.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:47.840000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:47.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:48.440000+08:00","text":"你認為是沒有問題？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:48.440000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:49.440000+08:00","text":"沒問題，超過他的需求。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:49.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:53.344000+08:00","text":"然後也不會影響到我們的民生用水嘛？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:53.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:54.004000+08:00","text":"因為量的……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:54.004000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:55.004000+08:00","text":"不會，不會影響。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:54.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:55.885000+08:00","text":"那電的部分，我們再來看一下。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:56.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:07.613000+08:00","text":"你可以看得出來，台電過去的報告中有標明供電量跟需求量，這個在之前的報告裡面有，可是在修正完之後，目前我沒有看到台電供電量的規劃，只有用電的需求量，沒有看到規劃的供電量。","quality":0.481},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:08.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:11.696000+08:00","text":"因為水跟電是非常重要的，所以我們強烈地要求這一塊也要盯緊。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:12.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:15.178000+08:00","text":"因為這一塊盯緊的話，我們才有辦法，不然廠商來的話沒有電。","quality":0.48},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:15.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:17.140000+08:00","text":"目前為止，我沒有看到電的規劃。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:17.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:19.081000+08:00","text":"沒問題，我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:19.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:20.643000+08:00","text":"對，這個部分你一定要做好處理……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:20.643000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:21.643000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:20.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:26.890000+08:00","text":"水電的處理，大家都希望台積電進駐，但是水電是關鍵，而且重點是不要因為用水、用電量這麼大的廠進駐而影響到民生，所以這部分要保證絕對有。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:26.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:48.569000+08:00","text":"最後一個我們來問一下有關AI，AI的導入，我剛剛也看到了，目前為止我們也經過國際認證，包括台灣杉二號、三號跟創近一號，目前為止，我們在有關於建構共同的模型算力基礎的建設上，這部分是沒有問題的。","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:49.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:59.001000+08:00","text":"我想請問，目前我們各單位，特別是國防部，有跟你們討論要把AI應用到他們的計畫當中嗎？目前。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:59.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:59.921000+08:00","text":"目前沒有。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:00.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:00.561000+08:00","text":"目前沒有。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:00.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:00.961000+08:00","text":"為什麼我要問這個問題？","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:01.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:24.866000+08:00","text":"因為現在在中東戰爭當中，美國是大力的用他們的算力去做，而且他們建構了非常多的中心，但是它也常常會變成，因為就非常精準的層面來說，也讓很多人把它當作是一個破壞很大的基地，因為怕它太過精準，然後會對他們伊朗的本土造成很大的損害。","quality":0.635},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:25.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:36.881000+08:00","text":"我們高雄因應這樣的需求，也有所謂的AI算力專區，我其實比較擔心在民用跟軍用的層面，到底要怎麼樣去規範AI的倫理，為什麼呢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:36.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:37.302000+08:00","text":"為什麼要提出這個部分？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:37.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:55.980000+08:00","text":"因為美國來說的話，有一個美國的AI公司叫做Anthropic，因為他目前為止，完全不要讓美國的國防部跟他們來做這方面的合作，以致於川普非常不高興，他甚至把它當作是一個國家安全議題，認為此舉構成供應鏈風險。","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:57.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:03.105000+08:00","text":"因為他們認為AI用在國防上還是有它的倫理考量，所以它會引起國防跟商業倫理的兩難。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:03.105000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:04.486000+08:00","text":"我們已經通過AI基本法了，主委，你有沒有在這個層面上去做一些規範，否則把AI放在未來的戰爭當中，其實對人類來說是一個相當大的挑戰，有沒有這樣的規劃？","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:04.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:06.047000+08:00","text":"我們的AI基本法已經通過了……對。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:21.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:22.484000+08:00","text":"那在AI基本法裡面，我們其實……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:22.484000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:24.186000+08:00","text":"我們沒有討論到這一塊喔。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:24.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:30.636000+08:00","text":"我們沒有討論這一塊，但是我們明確的講，我們政府的施政，一定要依照AI基本法的規範……","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:31.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:38.782000+08:00","text":"沒有，我個人認為你這一塊其實還應該再做一些界定，因為在全世界當中都已經面臨了，軍事應用跟商業倫理的兩難。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:38.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:46.668000+08:00","text":"很多人認為說把AI用在國防，特別是在作為攻擊的層面上，是有倫理的問題，這是未來可能會發生的。","quality":0.595},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:47.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:56.876000+08:00","text":"所以我說即使是通過了，但是這方面未來可能要再進一步擬定得更明確一點，否則這個部分來說的話，會造成非常大、非常大的一個問題。","quality":0.554},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:57.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:02.539000+08:00","text":"不過國防議題不在國科會的主政範圍，這個當然是……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:03.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:10.102000+08:00","text":"但是你們在AI的部分，所以我剛才問，有沒有跨部會地來跟你們做更大範圍的研商？","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:10.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:15.304000+08:00","text":"因為這個畢竟未來都會是全面性地去做處理跟應用的。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:15.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:18.366000+08:00","text":"好，如果國防部要跟國科會來討論此事，我們會跟他來……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:18.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:19.386000+08:00","text":"所以目前沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:19.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:19.966000+08:00","text":"目前沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:20.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:28.251000+08:00","text":"那目前AI基本法裡面也還沒有，尚未要有是否可以廣泛的運用，目前為止也都還沒有做這樣的規劃跟處理？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:28.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:39.781000+08:00","text":"目前沒有，因為AI基本法裡面其實對保障人權已經很明確的講出來，有七個項目在人權的保障上，所以這部分我認為是沒有問題的。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:40.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:45.686000+08:00","text":"我們就來看看嘛，不過還是把它放在這部分，因為未來可能你都會應用得到，好不好？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:46.186000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:48.186000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，謝謝委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:48.486000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:50.486000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯志恩委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:50.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:54.214571+08:00","text":"下一位有請羅智強委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}