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但是呢如果說有人說目前儲能裡面就是有電"},{"start":136.916,"end":155.298,"text":"有離峰時候存的電在我們尖峰的時候呢我們是不是降低對LNG的發電量改用儲能的電它是個容易沒錯但是總發電量記在我們的度數當中它是離峰時候產生的綠電用儲能存起來我們在尖峰的時候加進去對不對那目前如果這樣的做法有沒有在考慮"},{"start":156.889,"end":182.597,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們現在儲能設施就已經在用在做那個離間封調度而且我們現在已經超過兩個GIGA來我們看一下實情啦過去我們繼續架構考量台電的電力交易平台根據儲能業者說因為成本價格嘛我們採定了設定採購的需求因為目前的儲能的裝置容量大於我們調度所需要常態的調度"},{"start":183.519,"end":206.892,"text":"所以費率是零啊所以設備上我就退場了我幹嘛我去除了這些尖峰時候的發電量離峰時候的發電量那我等著要給你們用你們尖峰時候不來調度但是目前如果短期的緊急支援它可以增加我們天然氣存量啊可以增加韌性啊我先請教一下如果用除能供電會增加多少購電的成本那除能供電又能增加多少供電量"},{"start":209.004,"end":236.705,"text":"儲能的狀況是這樣就像委員螢幕上面顯示的他是一個競標但是他標的是容量費率他投零元他依然會有能量費率等等的費用可以收所以實務上目前這些儲能業者說他們要退場因為他們除了能基本上台電基於價格的定價不會去跟他買好那表示說如果LNG價格繼續高漲是不是他的成本值得跟儲能業者來調度"},{"start":239.517,"end":258.335,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說如果我們在尖峰的時候遇到有需要的時候我們還是會一定都會調好那麼就把過去實質上我們調度用儲能的電來調度在尖峰的時候的用電需求的部分列出來好不好我們看一下實況案會如何業者的說法是不是有他的道理往下看其實啊 部長"},{"start":259.156,"end":271.25,"text":"其實颱風天我從小到大我們颱風天來之前大樓的水塔就會提前儲水每個人家的家裡會裝水桶也備水這是減少分散風險降低缺水危機 是不是這樣子"},{"start":272.142,"end":287.702,"text":"那我們家人會這樣國人要怎麼樣面對能源危機是不是我們要擴建跟增建LNA的儲槽就像我們在大樓的水塔多做幾座提高整體的安全存量您同意嗎我同意那另外呢這個儲能設備就像每個人家裡的什麼的水桶一樣"},{"start":289.364,"end":303.201,"text":"分散的這個供電系統當中我用儲能的把一些電先存起來以便不時之需大概就是這個概念那請問目前國家經濟部有訂定LNG儲槽擴建的目標未來的期程有沒有參考其他國家LNG的安全準量"},{"start":303.939,"end":315.993,"text":"有 我們現在大概是法定是11天那原則大概都可以到12天日本是多少明年希望可以達到14天14天 日本是多少天日本沒有定韓國是9天所以我們還優於鄰近國家但是我們的風險也高於鄰近國家"},{"start":321.94,"end":340.757,"text":"我們希望明年可以達到14天很好 那你的進程有沒有辦法趕得上我們的擴建增建的期程要趕得上這14天是 就是說這個LNG的除潮我們還是希望盡快來擴建好 那往下看喔能源韌性除了儲能之外還有多元供應你們天然氣已經分散採購了嘛剛剛你也答詢嘛說中東之外趕快跟美國集團買對不對"},{"start":342.398,"end":370.956,"text":"好 但是電力的供應那時候我也問過董事長我說是要繼續推動再生能源像地熱的發電是要增加我們的多元選項是 地熱是我們的選項但是也有人說新能 新型核電也是選項囉有沒有這樣的考慮那個是 那是未來我們未來好 可是未來就開始講了SMR這個小型的模組化供電的反應爐這個居然啊在前幾天呢有一個叫做國家原子科技研究院有沒有聽過這個單位"},{"start":373.273,"end":395.075,"text":"他是在國科會以下的財政法人 核安會的財政法人結果盤點有三種SMR基礎可以讓高階核廢大減奇怪了 我從來不曉得這個單位有在做這個研究你認為他們的研究目前的成果可以讓我們達到總統所承諾的核廢有解 核安確保 社會共識SMR目前的研究成果可以達到這三個標準要求嗎"},{"start":396.261,"end":412.998,"text":"我們現在還在觀察因為全世界的希望你們不是觀察你們要去深入掌握好不好好那我問一下其實很多人在談SMR其實它的商業價值就是以豬代壽SMR這個小型模組化核反應爐它的技術就來自於什麼來自於像美國這樣的核動力潛艦"},{"start":414.807,"end":438.309,"text":"你有聽過核動力潛艦只要加一次燃料棒它的退役之前除役之前它都不用再添加你知道這個技術吧核潛艦一燒可以用三四十年它不用添加燃料棒它一次到位那它的體積小容易移動對不對其實這就是SMR的原始模型SMR它提供的是奏電服務你用它的電力目前的商業構想是什麼樣你不用處理它"},{"start":439.59,"end":465.709,"text":"機組以後的廚藝的問題 合費的問題 通通帶回去處理就像你們辦公室的影印機啊 以前我買影印機買了之後放在辦公室裡 他買墨水匣壞掉了要找人來維修 故障了或者報廢了 我要找人來處理這個SMR的概念就像你不是買影印機 你是要求什麼租賃服務 他給你算章數計價的這是不是SMR目前所了解的商業模型"},{"start":467.441,"end":482.326,"text":"現在為止我們看到的是各國還是各做各國的這個您剛才講我是說SMR的商業模式的理解是不是這樣子那是未來但是現在還沒有看到目前沒有嘛 目前可能80還沒有半撇嘛來 我們來用傳統核電跟SMR來比重啟核電跟機載用電傳統核電用牛棚的投手"},{"start":487.048,"end":511.336,"text":"遇到了天然氣吃緊 我們上來投個兩球中繼投手 救援投手 是不是這樣子但是你不會拿它來作為機載的電力但是現在業界在期待SMR市場像指定打擊啊它每一場九個人它都固定上場打擊 它是個強棒你這樣瞭解嗎 因為兩者不同一個是電力吃緊 短缺的時候緊急備援另外一個是成本高 但是供應穩定的電力你認為對於SMR有期待的是哪一些產業"},{"start":513.445,"end":537.212,"text":"為什麼這些產業會期待SMR?SMR因為它有一點像傳統核電它規模比較小那是可以比較分散式重點在於說你不用去處理核廢啦我們再跟你分析一下主席站起來了不好意思跟趙偉再拜託一下傳統產業因為他們毛利率低他們希望能夠得到便宜的電力維持競爭力核電如果加上核後端不便宜"},{"start":538.072,"end":550.315,"text":"但是高科技產業他毛利率高他要求是穩定供應穩定供電但是呢他可以接受高電價請問你們知道目前可預期的未來SMR如果商業化他的供電價格跑出來了嗎"},{"start":552.211,"end":578.08,"text":"現在很高啦很高根本沒有啦很高是多少錢就是比他成本高非常多高非常多所以還沒有辦法商業化不是技術上做不到是商業化目前沒有辦法被產業納入考量所以請經濟部跟台電協同國科會的國研院還是原能會我也搞不清楚然後去評估一下未來你們對人家在倡議SMR的時候你要問他價格是多少"},{"start":578.78,"end":603.786,"text":"服務內容有沒有包括核報端簽約有沒有簽約對象 好不好簡單講啊 不要再隨著這些媒體的報導起舞SMR根本就是八字還沒有半撇 空中羅格這三個項目沒有出來之前 談都免談所以結論第一 請經濟部要責成台電納入儲能設備的供應電力把它納入去做個評估第二 擴建我們天然儲槽 提高供電韌性 可以嗎好"},{"start":605.326,"end":619.719,"text":"第二個你們去責成這個協同國科會或者是跟這個國語園院去請他委託他如果那麼喜歡在媒體上講SMR請他把這三個ABC提供給經濟部不然就請他閉嘴可以嗎"},{"start":622.068,"end":641.42,"text":"他是我們平行單位啦這是啊 不然他每天放這個假消息也沒有價格 也沒有服務內容 也沒有簽約對象再說要仔細評估 這樣給產業錯誤的憧憬對經濟部 你們產業發展是不利的 你同意嗎不好意思 那個 那個這個能源署 署長"},{"start":643.29,"end":662.857,"text":"你會期待SMR有這個ABC還沒出來之前你對它有什麼期待我們基本上還是會持續去了解這個資訊就是說未來到底要怎麼使用或者是說好 所以你們要掌握資訊 部長你們要掌握這個資訊不要放任這樣的錯誤的訊息 四處流傳 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:50:21.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:50:39.343000+08:00","text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:50:40.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:50:47.570000+08:00","text":"有請經濟部龔部長，還有能源署吳代理署長以及台電曾董事長。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:50:47.570000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:50:51.638000+08:00","text":"鍾委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:50:51.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:50:53.158000+08:00","text":"部長早、署長早、董事長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:50:53.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:01.681000+08:00","text":"今天的題目包括了要去購買能源、原油，還有發電設備，我的題目就是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:01.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:24.825000+08:00","text":"天然氣吃緊，昨天的媒體報導居然說一度要考慮恢復燃煤機組，我們知道目前在麥寮的台塑本身的運轉許可是還有餘裕，但是他跟台電的購電約已經終止了，因為中東的戰事影響天然氣供應，有沒有考慮用來作為我們緊急……補我們發電的不足嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:24.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:25.126000+08:00","text":"有沒有考慮過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:25.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:25.166000+08:00","text":"為什麼報紙這樣寫？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:31.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:34.119000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，就是中東的戰事一發生……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:34.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:35.981000+08:00","text":"這只是媒體的報導，還是真的有這樣的評估？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:36.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:44.772000+08:00","text":"請容我說明一下，事實上中東的戰事一發生，我們就把所有手上可以做為緊急應用的機組都做了盤點。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:45.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:45.793000+08:00","text":"所以燃煤也是選項之一？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:47.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:49.676000+08:00","text":"燃煤是選項之一，而且現在全世界很多國家都做這個選擇。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:49.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:51.478000+08:00","text":"我了解，很多國家都重啟了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:53.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:58.744000+08:00","text":"也是一樣，最近的媒體報導有人提到，儲能系統也可以上場救援，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:58.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:02.146000+08:00","text":"因為用電的尖峰改用儲能設備來供電，目前的儲能是綠電、綠能在離峰時間的發電量可以存起來給尖峰用，可是事實上目前並沒有。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:10.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:19.941000+08:00","text":"有人說我們只要在尖峰的時候少用燃氣機組，這樣可以降低對天然氣的消耗，而且維持安全存量，台電支持嗎？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:21.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:27.347000+08:00","text":"報告委員，儲能是用來挪移離尖峰的，它不會產生電能……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:27.347000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:28.347000+08:00","text":"當然，它就是用……","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:28.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:33.212000+08:00","text":"我們現在需要燃料是要產生電能，這是兩個完全不同的問題。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:33.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:33.432000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:33.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:45.045000+08:00","text":"但是如果有人說，目前儲能裡面就是有離峰時候存的電，在尖峰的時候，是不是降低對LNG的發電量，改用儲能的電。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:45.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:54.236000+08:00","text":"它是有挪移沒錯，但是總發電計在我們的度數當中，它是離峰時候產生的綠電用儲能存起來，在尖峰時候加進去對不對？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:54.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:56.298000+08:00","text":"目前有沒有在考慮這樣的做法？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:57.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:08.012000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在儲能設施已經在做離尖峰調度，而且已經超過兩個Giga了。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:08.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:35.965000+08:00","text":"我們看一下實情，過去以價格考量，台電的電力交易平台，根據儲能業者說，因為考量成本價格而設定採購需求，目前的儲能裝置容量大於我們所需要常態的調度，費率是零，所以設備商就退場了，他們為何要儲這些離峰時的發電量，等著要給你們尖峰時來調度。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:36.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:41.688000+08:00","text":"但是目前如果是短期的緊急支援，可以增加天然氣存量及韌性。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:42.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:45.310000+08:00","text":"我先請教一下，如果用儲能供電會增加多少購電成本？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:45.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:47.872000+08:00","text":"儲能供電又能增加多少供電量？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:50.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:01.973000+08:00","text":"儲能的狀況是這樣，就像委員剛剛螢幕上面顯示的，它是一個競標，但是標的是容量費率，他投零元，依然會有容量費率等等的費用可以收。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:03.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:17.685000+08:00","text":"所以實務上，目前這些儲能業者說要退場，因為他們儲的能，台電基於價格的定價，不會去跟他買，表示如果LNG價格繼續高漲，是不是他的成本值得跟儲能業者來調度？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:20.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:27.264000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果在尖峰時段遇到有需要的時候，我們還是一定都會調度。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:27.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:34.210000+08:00","text":"那麼就把過去實際上，我們用儲能的電調度在尖峰時候的用電需求部分列出來，好不好？好。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:34.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:37.794000+08:00","text":"我們看一下實際狀況如何，業者的說法是不是有他的道理？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:39.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:52.230000+08:00","text":"部長，我從小到大在颱風來之前，大樓的水塔就會提前儲水，每個人家裡也會裝水桶備水，這是減少、分散風險，降低缺水危機，是不是這樣子？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:53.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:55.745000+08:00","text":"我們家人會這樣，國人要怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:55.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:59.450000+08:00","text":"面對能源危機，是不是我們要擴建跟增建LNG的儲槽？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:59.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:04.717000+08:00","text":"就像我們大樓的水塔多做幾座，提高整體的安全存量，您同意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:04.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:04.977000+08:00","text":"我同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:05.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:17.072000+08:00","text":"另外，儲能設備就像每個人家裡的水桶一樣，在分散供電系統當中，用儲能把一些電先存起來，以便不時之需，大概就是這個概念。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:17.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:21.357000+08:00","text":"請問目前國家、經濟部有沒有訂定LNG儲槽的擴建目標？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:21.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:21.918000+08:00","text":"未來的期程？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:22.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:24.181000+08:00","text":"有沒有參考其他國家的安全存量？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:24.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:29.745000+08:00","text":"有，現在法定大概是11天，原則上大概都可以到12天，但我們希望明年……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:29.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:30.245000+08:00","text":"日本是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:31.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:32.788000+08:00","text":"明年希望可以達到14天。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:32.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:33.930000+08:00","text":"14天，日本是多少天？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:34.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:34.971000+08:00","text":"日本沒有訂。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:34.971000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:35.971000+08:00","text":"日本沒有訂？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:35.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:35.471000+08:00","text":"韓國是9天。9天。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:35.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:36.072000+08:00","text":"所以我們還優於鄰近國家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:36.072000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:37.072000+08:00","text":"對，但是我們希望……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:36.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:36.973000+08:00","text":"但是我們的風險也高於鄰近國家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:42.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:44.762000+08:00","text":"我們希望明年可以達到14天。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:45.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:49.546000+08:00","text":"好，很好，那你的進程有沒有辦法趕得上，擴建、增建的期程要趕得上這14天。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:51.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:53.690000+08:00","text":"所以關於LNG的儲槽，我們還是希望儘快擴建。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:55.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:01.737000+08:00","text":"能源韌性，除了儲能之外還要多元供應，天然氣已經分散採購了，剛剛你也答詢除了中東之外，趕快跟美國及其他的買嘛！","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:01.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:01.757000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:01.757000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:04.059000+08:00","text":"對，美國和澳洲。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:04.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:11.163000+08:00","text":"關於電力的供應，那時候我也問過曾董事長，我說要繼續推動再生能源，像地熱的發電等，以增加我們的多元選項。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:11.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:13.304000+08:00","text":"是，地熱是我們的選項……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:13.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:18.047000+08:00","text":"但是也有人說新型核電也是選項，有沒有這樣的考慮？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:18.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:19.709000+08:00","text":"那個指的是未來而言，我們會持續關注。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:19.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:31.936000+08:00","text":"未來，好，那就開始講了，SMR，小型模組化供電的反應爐，居然在前幾天，有一個叫做國家原子能科技研究院，有沒有聽過這個單位？有啊。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:34.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:36.315000+08:00","text":"他是在國科會以下的財團法人。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:36.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:37.937000+08:00","text":"核安會的財團法人。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:37.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:39.038000+08:00","text":"核安會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:39.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:44.023000+08:00","text":"結果他盤點了三種SMR的技術可以讓高階核廢料大減，奇怪了！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:44.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:53.212000+08:00","text":"我從來不曉得這個單位有在做這個研究，你認為他們目前的研究成果，可以讓我們達到總統所承諾的核廢有解、核安確保、社會共識？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:53.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:56.075000+08:00","text":"SMR目前的研究成果可以達到這三個標準要求嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:57.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:59.984000+08:00","text":"我們現在還在觀察，因為全世界的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:57:00.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:57:02.947000+08:00","text":"希望你們不只是觀察，你們要去深入掌握，好不好？好。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:57:03.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:57:22.854000+08:00","text":"很多人在談SMR，其實它的商業價值就是以租代售，SMR小型模組化核反應爐，它的技術就是來自於像美國這樣的核動力潛艦，核動力潛艦只要加一次燃料棒，在退役、除役之前都不用再添加，你知道這個技術吧？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:57:24.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:57:30.841000+08:00","text":"可是潛艦一艘可以用三、四十年，不用添加燃料棒，一次到位，它的體積小容易移動。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:57:31.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:57:38.729000+08:00","text":"其實這就是SMR的原始模型，SMR提供的是售電服務，你用它的電力，目前的商業構想是怎麼樣？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:57:38.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:57:44.373000+08:00","text":"你不用處理機組以後除役的問題、核廢的問題，通通由它帶回去處理。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:57:45.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:57:56.562000+08:00","text":"就像辦公室的影印機，以前我們買影印機，買了之後放在辦公室裡，要買墨水匣；壞掉了，要找人來修；故障了，或者報廢了，要找人來處理。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:57:58.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:06.689000+08:00","text":"SMR的概念就像你不是買影印機，而是要求租賃服務，是以張數計價的，這是不是目前所了解的SMR商業模型？","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:08.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:13.943000+08:00","text":"現在為止，我們看到的是各國還是各做各的，您剛才講的這個商業模式……","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:13.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:16.884000+08:00","text":"我是說對SMR商業模式的理解，是不是這樣子？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:17.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:19.445000+08:00","text":"那是未來，但是現在還沒有看到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:19.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:21.266000+08:00","text":"目前沒有嘛，八字還沒有半撇！對。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:22.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:32.910000+08:00","text":"我們用傳統核電跟SMR來比，重啟核電跟基載用電，傳統核電就像牛棚的投手，遇到了天然氣吃緊，我們上來投個兩球，中繼投手、救援投手，是不是這樣子？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:33.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:35.390000+08:00","text":"但是你不會拿它來作為基載電力。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:36.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:44.213000+08:00","text":"但是現在業界在期待SMR，像指定打擊，每一場9個人，它都固定上場打擊，它是個強棒，這樣了解嗎？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:44.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:49.955000+08:00","text":"因為兩者不同，一個是電力吃緊、短缺的時候，緊急備援；另外一個是成本高，但是供應穩定的電力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:50.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:52.336000+08:00","text":"你認為對於SMR有期待的是哪些產業？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:54.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:58:56.286000+08:00","text":"為什麼這些產業會期待SMR？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:58:56.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:02.267000+08:00","text":"SMR，因為它有點像傳統核能，它的規模比較小，可以比較分散式……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:02.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:05.948000+08:00","text":"重點在於不用去處理核廢，我們再跟你分析一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:06.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:10.029000+08:00","text":"主席站起來了，不好意思，跟召委再拜託一下。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:10.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:18.192000+08:00","text":"傳統產業因為毛利率低，他們希望能夠得到便宜的電力以維持競爭力，核電如果加上核後端，並不便宜。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:19.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:26.226000+08:00","text":"但是高科技產業毛利率高，要求的就是穩定供電，可以接受高電價。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:26.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:31.315000+08:00","text":"請問你們知道目前可預期未來SMR如果商業化，它的供電價格出來了嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:33.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:34.592000+08:00","text":"現在很高啦。很高？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:34.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:35.632000+08:00","text":"根本沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:35.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:37.352000+08:00","text":"很高，很高是多少錢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:37.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:59:39.093000+08:00","text":"就是成本高非常多，根本就不可能。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T09:59:39.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:00:04.821000+08:00","text":"高非常多，所以還沒有辦法商業化，不是技術上做不到，是商業化目前沒有辦法被產業納入考量，所以請經濟部跟台電協同國原院進行評估，未來你們對人家在倡議SMR的時候，你要問他價格是多少、服務內容有沒有包括核後端、有沒有簽約的對象，好不好？好。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T10:00:04.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:00:13.663000+08:00","text":"簡單講，不要再隨著這些媒體報導起舞，SMR根本就是八字還沒有半撇，空中樓閣，這三個項目沒有出來之前，談都免談。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T10:00:13.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:00:24.766000+08:00","text":"所以結論，第一，請經濟部責成台電納入儲能設備的供應電力，把它納入，去做個評估；第二，擴建天然氣儲槽，提高供電韌性，可以嗎？好。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T10:00:26.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:00:40.719000+08:00","text":"第二，你們協同國科會或者是跟國原院，它如果那麼喜歡在媒體上講SMR，請它把這三個ABC提供給經濟部，不然就請它閉嘴，可以嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-08T10:00:43.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:00:44.089000+08:00","text":"它是我們平行單位，我們沒辦法……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T10:00:45.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:00:58.377000+08:00","text":"不然它每天放這個假消息，沒有價格、沒有服務內容，也沒有簽約對象，說要仔細評估，這樣給產業錯誤的憧憬，對你們經濟部產業發展是不利的，你同意嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T10:01:01.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:01:07.775000+08:00","text":"我請能源署署長，SMR這ABC還沒出來之前，你對它有什麼期待？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳代理署長志偉","start":"2026-04-08T10:01:08.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:01:14.844000+08:00","text":"我們基本上還是會持續了解這個資訊，就是未來到底要怎麼使用，或是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T10:01:15.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:01:22.955000+08:00","text":"所以你們要掌握資訊，部長，你們要掌握這個資訊，不要放任這樣的錯誤訊息四處流竄，好不好？好。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T10:01:23.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:01:23.696000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-08T10:01:23.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:01:23.836000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:01:24.336000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:01:26.336000+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:01:26.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:01:30.064571+08:00","text":"接下來有請陳亭妃委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}