{"error":false,"id":["168278"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168278,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168278","日期":"2026-04-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-23-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-08T11:32:20+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-08T11:43:15+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0c5f3dd86ba3145e3f747912251df08273efd812baa63ee588974e5e652c6c4c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:32:20 - 11:43:15","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":4.11471875,"end":7.574093750000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":7.709093750000001,"end":8.552843750000001,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":14.40846875,"end":24.347843750000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":14.560343750000001,"end":15.235343750000002,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":22.980968750000002,"end":22.99784375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":22.99784375,"end":23.26784375,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":23.26784375,"end":23.31846875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":24.55034375,"end":60.899093750000006,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":28.63409375,"end":28.92096875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":61.60784375,"end":77.84159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":76.00221875000001,"end":76.47471875000001,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":78.11159375000001,"end":118.83096875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":106.36034375000001,"end":107.28846875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":109.49909375,"end":110.62971875000001,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":119.59034375,"end":120.29909375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":120.70409375000001,"end":121.51409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":121.88534375,"end":131.36909375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":124.73721875000001,"end":124.87221875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":124.87221875,"end":124.97346875000001,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.04096875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":132.34784375,"end":176.22284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":158.11596875,"end":158.45346875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":176.61096875,"end":199.99971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":179.46284375000002,"end":179.64846875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":195.42659375000002,"end":195.79784375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":200.79284375,"end":203.62784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":204.79221875000002,"end":205.33221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":205.58534375000002,"end":211.44096875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":212.08221875,"end":225.93659375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":214.24221875,"end":214.57971875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":216.38534375,"end":216.75659375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":225.93659375000001,"end":295.02284375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":228.82221875000002,"end":229.02471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":295.37721875,"end":311.10471875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":310.37909375000004,"end":336.53534375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":311.50971875000005,"end":311.69534375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":323.86221875,"end":324.26721875000004,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":325.06034375,"end":325.48221875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":335.84346875,"end":336.21471875000003,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":336.78846875000005,"end":344.12909375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":344.82096875,"end":360.16034375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":361.24034375,"end":399.00659375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":368.42909375000005,"end":368.68221875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":386.09721875,"end":386.16471875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":386.16471875,"end":386.48534375,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":386.48534375,"end":386.51909375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":399.47909375,"end":400.52534375000005,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":401.09909375,"end":424.26846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":404.92971875,"end":405.35159375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":407.96721875000003,"end":408.35534375000003,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":414.22784375000003,"end":414.63284375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":424.96034375000005,"end":434.00534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":426.78284375000004,"end":427.13721875000005,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":429.28034375000004,"end":430.10721875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":430.78221875,"end":431.20409375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":434.20784375000005,"end":454.27221875000004,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":453.42846875000004,"end":457.96784375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":455.36909375000005,"end":455.53784375000004,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":458.33909375,"end":501.01596875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":500.83034375000005,"end":502.41659375000006,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":503.59784375000004,"end":522.43034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":514.12784375,"end":514.53284375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":523.00409375,"end":524.37096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":523.99971875,"end":525.78846875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":525.2990937500001,"end":526.21034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":526.5815937500001,"end":526.8347187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":526.9865937500001,"end":536.65596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":537.31409375,"end":550.10534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":538.2422187500001,"end":538.57971875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":550.4765937500001,"end":555.4040937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林部長宜敬","start":555.6572187500001,"end":564.9384687500001,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":564.9384687500001,"end":566.2040937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":566.11971875,"end":572.61659375,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":572.76846875,"end":598.1484687500001,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":598.2834687500001,"end":598.3003437500001,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":598.3003437500001,"end":599.51534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":600.46034375,"end":642.8503437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":600.8147187500001,"end":601.20284375,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":642.8672187500001,"end":648.13221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":648.13221875,"end":653.6672187500001,"speaker_score":0.903},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何委員欣純","start":653.6672187500001,"end":653.9709687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡署長福隆","start":653.9709687500001,"end":654.29159375,"speaker_score":0.903}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.141,"end":8.251,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是不是請部長好 我請你部長"},{"start":15.274,"end":38.802,"text":"部長好我想我今天還是關心這個國際上我們台灣融入這個非紅供應鏈的問題我們台美直接有簽署細勝式宣言台美經濟安全合作聯合聲明深化台美高科技的供應鏈的信賴關係共同推動AI半導體以及無人機等產業的非紅供應鏈那我們跟法國也有"},{"start":41.603,"end":58.804,"text":"簽署一個產業創新的備忘錄跟英國日本我們也在簽訂數位貿易的一個協定希望能夠為企業跟消費者提供開放包容安全且公平的數位貿易環境所以呢賴總統有宣示我們要融入這個飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":61.667,"end":75.155,"text":"我們引以為傲是什麼 台灣為系島之心要走向全世界那不僅僅是半導體的一個硬體AI的硬體我們要走向世界包括AI軟體更要拚 對不對好 接著下一個 我就要請教你"},{"start":78.377,"end":90.307,"text":"當我們長期在佈局走向AI人工智慧之島那我們有六大智慧的一個終端的關鍵技術這個當然都是以國家之力量在做佈局也剛剛我看到許志傑委員在問的當我們在佈局的同時我們如何向下扎根"},{"start":97.513,"end":118.42,"text":"在這個科技產業跟AI產業技術的一個教育人才之培育等等其實都在我們的布局策略之一對不對所以我們要軟硬堅持嘛我們不是只有製造這個半導體這個硬體不是只有製造AI產業裡面的相關的一個零組件硬體我們"},{"start":120.9,"end":131.285,"text":"軟體系統才是真正的這個核心嘛對不對那真正的核心軟體就跟數位發展部的角色很重要來下一頁為什麼會這麼講當我們在發展人工智慧產業的時候AI是我們引以為傲也是下一個台灣的下一個台灣的這個產業重心向全世界都能夠宣示台灣在這方面佔有優勢也願意投資願意"},{"start":150.474,"end":168.981,"text":"來讓我們台灣整體的產業都能夠跟著升級轉型但是也因為這樣子面臨了很大的一個挑戰國安單位已經有示警這是一份國家情報工作暨國家安全局的業務報告裡面就曾經指出中國共產黨那邊非常積極的拉攏國際上也好或是台灣也好AI產業的"},{"start":176.924,"end":202.521,"text":"相關的第一個人才的挖角科技的竊密還有收購管制貨品等等他為了就是什麼除了我們先進製程的晶片核心技術之外那他對於人的方面也是非常積極的在經營那再加上我們現在台灣的AI產業裡面所有產業升級在使用的軟體系統"},{"start":204.821,"end":225.45,"text":"部長 你有掌握過這些軟體系統 中國方面的技術第一個 先進嗎 第二個 影響台灣嗎第三個 台灣我們自己內部的各產業在運用 在使用的這些系統軟體哪些來自中國 你有掌握嗎"},{"start":226.01,"end":253.426,"text":"是因為我本身就來自於軟體產業那因為軟體產業的特性就是他開發成本非常高然後複製成本很低所以通常軟體產業都會盡量去尋找大的市場那因為中國的市場比台灣大很多所以在過去20年大概從工研2000年開始就是台灣的軟體公司通常都是在台灣跟中國大陸兩邊一起就是都是經營市場所以在這個公司裡面也會有很多的中國籍員工但是隨著這個在"},{"start":254.947,"end":271.483,"text":"COVID-19以後美中基本上已經脫鉤了然後因為中國他有一個叫做國家情報法然後國家情報法裡面第七條規定就是說那個中國的所有的公民還有組織都必須協助配合支持國家的情報工作"},{"start":272.003,"end":292.842,"text":"那這一點就讓全世界其他的民主國家都非常緊張不單是我們台灣緊張其實美國日本歐盟那邊都非常緊張所以現在就是說在這個軟體產業上也逐漸的脫鉤那我事實上最近才去參加那個在San Francisco的那個國際資安大會RSAC那裡面大家都提到這個問題然後顯然的就是說"},{"start":295.464,"end":322.872,"text":"大家都認為說這是很大的資安威脅所以我們現在也想辦法就是要去釐清就是讓台灣的這些這些產業軟體產業盡量把它就是機密的東西千萬不能讓中國的公司部長我當然知道你的這樣子的理念我們也認為在疫情過後美中的角力當中有一大部分的軟體系統產業也一定會做所謂的脫鉤"},{"start":323.952,"end":336.044,"text":"我們也期待這樣子的一個系統脫鉤但是我重點是後面的但是但是你到底掌握了多少就我所知台灣內部我們自己本身在產業在依賴這個系統軟體的一個部分"},{"start":344.893,"end":358.901,"text":"到底有沒有第一個有沒有意識到這是中國來的系統軟體第一個第二個因為您講的因為中國的市場大所以過去台灣中國在不管是人才或是技術的研發或者是系統軟體的應用方面"},{"start":361.291,"end":372.474,"text":"到底在現在能不能完全脫鉤這個是我們必須自己對國內要有掌握不管是在我們的AI產業的供應鏈的每一個環節裡面的系統軟體我們到底能不能掌握有盤點第二個我們如何協助這些系統軟體產業鏈裡面的每一環每一節都能夠成為我們強調的所謂的非紅供應鏈"},{"start":387.319,"end":398.852,"text":"這個包括我們現在在中小微型企業看到的當我們要輔導他們AI升級轉型的時候要他們應用數位科技的時候他們使用的軟體到底是不是紅色供應鏈"},{"start":401.175,"end":422.227,"text":"一般中小微型企業沒有概念那他們依賴的是什麼系統軟體業者那這些系統軟體業者就是我們數位發展部應該要有所掌握那甚至我們還要去主導宣示台灣要跟民主國家站在一起我們希望所有的系統產業都能夠"},{"start":425.049,"end":433.706,"text":"支持非紅供應鏈這個是必須要非常有自律而且必須要有自覺那這個部分我們數位發展部有沒有掌握"},{"start":435.126,"end":454.055,"text":"這方面基本上有兩種做法一種做法是我做實際的資安檢測另外一種就是我排除紅色供應鏈現在美國的做法以前都還會去檢查是不是有資安漏洞現在美國就直接很多地方就講說不能有紅色的供應商我們台灣自己國內數位發展部有直接講嗎"},{"start":458.693,"end":477.985,"text":"對 那我們現在就是有那個危害國家資通安全產品的清單那這個事情就是我們是不是請我們的資安署署長來說明因為我們發覺說這個產品就是說資訊產品它可以分成三個部分一個是具有計算能力的硬體第二個是不具計算能力的硬體第三個是軟體那軟體有很多的模組所組成的"},{"start":480.706,"end":500.654,"text":"然後我們會要求以後會要求就是說你在就是廠商都必須申報那如果由政府來進行採購的話你必須你這個申報必須誠實申報然後就看裡面如果有紅色供應鏈的那個軟體或者是那個具計算能力的硬體的話那我們依照我們的那個規定就是不能採購所以我才說當"},{"start":503.915,"end":522.27,"text":"當我們現在鄭麗君副院長前幾天也說過他今年也說過當我們宣示無人載具是2027的飛鴻供應鏈的目標我們要達到目標那我也期待AI產業的供應鏈也要訂出明確的目標為什麼即使是無人載具它上面也有"},{"start":523.083,"end":536.333,"text":"AI的系統 沒錯沒錯 這個是我們講的所以 對啊我們對這個國家大家對你的期待是什麼網路不能斷 系統不能讓駭客入侵資料不能丟失 剛剛你也提到大數據 算力"},{"start":538.635,"end":545.784,"text":"這些到底它的安全性在應用階段我們又如何能夠守住能夠讓我們自己國內的產業在應用的時候也能夠有自發性的拒絕紅色供應鏈這個部分就是我們數位發展部的責任不是嗎"},{"start":555.957,"end":580.717,"text":"是我們一直在做這件事情那我們現在第一個就規範的就是政府的採購我們先從政府的採購做起那這個是不是請我們資安署署長說明一下對資安很重要謝謝委員這邊的這個提示那的確是剛剛部長所提到的我們政府機關的這個採購部分包含我們不能使用大陸相關的這些AI的產品包括像DISC我們居然就禁止使用DISC等等相關的這個AI的產品"},{"start":583.059,"end":599.052,"text":"第二是說我們在廠商在相關5I的過程當中也不能使用來自於這個紅色供應鏈的這個AI的相關的產品那這個都在採購法裡面有相關的這些範本的規範所以目前政府的採購法裡面就不會有這種AI產業的紅色供應鏈以上報告那你們如何稽查"},{"start":601.23,"end":623.045,"text":"你只有規範我知道規範了之後呢那各級單位在應用公務單位在應用的時候他又如何能夠知道這第一個喔而且呢第二個在你剛剛講的AI的應用有很多的模組化那很多的模組化到底這個它基於這個大數據的一個運算那這運算的資料跟大數據的規範跟管制還有呢怎麼資安如何能夠的保存這些資料這些數據我想這個我"},{"start":629.309,"end":652.469,"text":"期待是不是給我一個書面資料然後甚至給我完整的我們到底有沒有規範而這個規範之下我們對於各級行政單位或者是各單位在應用的時候到底我們有沒有防範之能力要有防範之能力有稽查之能力跟能量才有用啊是的 我們有稽核的相關的制度那我們再把相關資料再提供給委員好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:25.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:27.289000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:28.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:28.251000+08:00","text":"請林部長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:28.251000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:35.274000+08:00","text":"何委員早安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:35.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:35.594000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:36.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:44.677000+08:00","text":"我想我今天還是關心國際上，我們臺灣融入非紅供應鏈的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:44.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:57.882000+08:00","text":"我們臺美之間有簽署「矽盛世宣言」及「台美經濟安全合作聯合聲明」，深化臺美高科技供應鏈的信賴關係，共同推動AI、半導體以及無人機等產業的非紅供應鏈。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:58.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:14.058000+08:00","text":"我們跟法國也有簽署產業創新備忘錄，跟英國、日本也在簽訂數位貿易協定，希望能夠為企業跟消費者提供開放、包容、安全且公平的數位貿易環境。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:16.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:23.348000+08:00","text":"賴總統有宣示我們要融入非紅供應鏈，我們更引以為傲的是什麼？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:23.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:34.155000+08:00","text":"臺灣為矽島之星，要走向全世界，不僅僅是半導體硬體、AI硬體，我們要走向世界，AI軟體更要拚，對不對？是。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:34.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:06.976000+08:00","text":"接著，我就要請教你，當我們長期在布局走向AI人工智慧之島，我們有六大智慧終端關鍵技術，這些當然都是以國家之力量在做布局，剛剛我也看到許智傑委員在問的，當我們在布局的同時，我們如何向下扎根，在科技產業跟AI產業技術教育、人才之培育等等，其實都在我們的布局策略之一，對不對？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:06.976000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:07.976000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:06.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:09.277000+08:00","text":"所以我們要軟硬兼施嘛！是、是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:09.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:25.142000+08:00","text":"我們不是只有製造半導體、硬體，不是只有製造AI產業裡面相關的零組件硬體，軟體系統才是真正的核心，對不對？是。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:25.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:29.084000+08:00","text":"真正的核心，軟體對數位發展部的角色就很重要了，為什麼我會這麼講？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:29.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:58.477000+08:00","text":"當我們在發展人工智慧產業的時候，AI是我們引以為傲，也是下一個臺灣的產業重心，向全世界都能夠宣示臺灣在這方面占有優勢，也願意投資，願意來讓我們臺灣整體的產業都能夠跟著升級、轉型，但是也因為這樣子面臨了很大的挑戰。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:58.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:24.309000+08:00","text":"國安單位已經有示警，這是一份國家情報工作暨國家安全局的業務報告，裡面就曾經指出，中國共產黨非常積極地拉攏國際也好，或是臺灣也好，第一個，AI產業相關人才的挖角、科技的竊密，還有收購管制貨品等等。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:24.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:26.030000+08:00","text":"他為了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:26.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:42.521000+08:00","text":"除了我們先進製程晶片核心技術之外，他對於人的方面也是非常積極在經營，再加上現在臺灣AI產業裡面，所有產業升級在使用的軟體系統。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:44.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:54.125000+08:00","text":"部長，第一個，你有掌握過這些軟體系統，中國方面的技術先進嗎？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:54.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:56.426000+08:00","text":"第二個，影響臺灣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:56.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:05.450000+08:00","text":"第三個，臺灣我們自己內部各產業在運用、使用的系統軟體，哪些來自中國，你有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:06.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:32.946000+08:00","text":"因為我本身就來自於軟體產業，軟體產業的特性就是開發成本非常高，然後複製成本很低，所以通常軟體產業都會儘量去尋找大的市場，因為中國市場比臺灣大很多，所以在過去二十年，大概從公元2000年開始，臺灣軟體公司通常都是在臺灣跟中國大陸兩邊一起經營市場，所以在公司裡面也會有很多中國籍員工。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:33.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:04.434000+08:00","text":"但是隨著在COVID-19以後，美中基本上已經脫鉤了，且因為中國有國家情報法，其第七條規定中國所有的公民還有組織都必須協助配合、支持國家的情報工作，這一點就讓全世界其他的民主國家都非常緊張，不單單是我們臺灣緊張，其實美國、日本、歐盟都非常緊張，所以現在在軟體產業上也逐漸脫鉤。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:04.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:30.308000+08:00","text":"事實上我最近才去參加在San Francisco的國際資安會議（RSAC），大家都提到這個問題，顯然大家都認為這是很大的資安威脅，所以我們現在也想辦法要去釐清，關於臺灣這些軟體產業機密的東西，千萬不能讓中國工程師……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:30.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:50.058000+08:00","text":"部長，我當然知道你的理念，我們也認為在疫情過後，美中的角力當中，有一大部分的軟體系統產業也一定會做所謂的脫鉤，我們也期待系統脫鉤，但是，我重點是後面的但是……是。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:50.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:52.261000+08:00","text":"但是你到底掌握了多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:52.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:08.975000+08:00","text":"就我所知，我們臺灣本身產業在依賴系統軟體的部分，第一個，到底有沒有意識到這是中國來的系統軟體？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:08.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:25.112000+08:00","text":"第二個，您講的，因為中國市場大，所以過去臺灣、中國，不管在人才、技術研發，或者是系統軟體應用方面，到底在現在能不能完全脫鉤？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:25.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:30.914000+08:00","text":"這是我們自己必須對國內要有掌握，不管是在AI產業供應鏈每個環節裡面的系統軟體，我們到底能不能掌握？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:31.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:31.034000+08:00","text":"有盤點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:31.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:32.474000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們如何協助這些系統軟體產業鏈裡面的每一環、每一節都能夠成為我們強調的所謂非紅供應鏈？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:47.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:58.852000+08:00","text":"包括我們現在在中小微型企業看到的，當我們要輔導他們AI升級轉型的時候，要他們應用數位科技的時候，他們使用的軟體到底是不是紅色供應鏈？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:01.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:03.917000+08:00","text":"一般中小微型企業沒有概念啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:04.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:06.558000+08:00","text":"他們倚賴的是什麼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:06.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:07.459000+08:00","text":"系統軟體業者啊！是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:08.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:13.582000+08:00","text":"這些系統軟體業者就是我們數位發展部應該要有所掌握啊！是。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:14.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:33.686000+08:00","text":"甚至我們還要去主導宣示臺灣要跟民主國家站在一起，我們希望所有的系統產業都能夠支持非紅供應鏈，這是必須非常自律而且必須要有自覺，這個部分數位發展部有沒有掌握？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:35.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:45.391000+08:00","text":"這方面基本上有兩種做法，一種做法是做實際資安檢測，另外一種就是排除紅色供應鏈。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:45.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:52.835000+08:00","text":"美國以前都還會去檢查是不是有資安漏洞，現在美國很多地方就直接講說不能有紅色供應商，但是軟體……","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:53.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:54.055000+08:00","text":"他們也講，那在我們臺灣自己國內，數位發展部有直接講嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:58.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:07.458000+08:00","text":"對，我們現在有危害國家資通安全產品的清單，這件事情是不是請資安署署長來說明？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:07.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:40.554000+08:00","text":"因為我們發覺資訊產品可以分成三個部分，第一個是具有計算能力的硬體，第二個是不具計算能力的硬體，第三個是軟體，軟體是由很多的模組所組成的，我們以後會要求廠商都必須申報，如果由政府來進行採購的話，你這個申報必須誠實申報，就是看裡面如果有紅色供應鏈的軟體或者是具計算能力的硬體的話，依照我們的規定就是不能採購。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:40.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:00.168000+08:00","text":"所以我才說當我們現在，鄭麗君副院長前幾天也說過，他今年說過，當我們宣示無人載具是2027非紅供應鏈的目標，我們要達到目標，我也期待AI產業的供應鏈要訂出明確的目標，為什麼？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:00.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:04.064000+08:00","text":"即使是無人載具，它上面也有AI的系統。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:04.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:06.005000+08:00","text":"沒錯、沒錯，這個就是我們講的……對啊！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:07.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:10.929000+08:00","text":"那我們對這個國家，大家對你的期待是什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:10.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:25.784000+08:00","text":"「網路不能斷、系統不能讓駭客入侵、資料不能丟失」，剛剛你也提到，大數據、算力的安全性在應用階段，我們如何能夠守住，讓我們自己國內的產業在應用的時候也能夠自發性地拒絕紅色供應鏈，這個部分就是數位發展部的責任，不是嗎？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"林部長宜敬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:35.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:44.784000+08:00","text":"是，所以我們一直在做這件事情，現在第一個規範的就是政府的採購，先從政府的採購做起，這個是不是請我們資安署署長說明一下？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:45.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:46.005000+08:00","text":"對，資安很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:46.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:00.697000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的提示，的確是剛剛部長所提到的，政府機關的採購部分，包含我們不能使用大陸相關的AI產品，包括像DeepSeek，我們去年就禁止使用DeepSeek等等相關的AI產品。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:03.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:17.891000+08:00","text":"第二個，廠商在相關委案的過程當中，也不能使用來自於紅色供應鏈的AI相關產品，這個在採購法裡面都有相關的範本規範，所以目前政府的採購法裡面就不會有這種AI產業的紅色供應鏈，以上報告。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:18.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:19.032000+08:00","text":"那你們如何稽查？因為……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:21.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:28.515000+08:00","text":"你只有規範我知道，規範了之後，各級單位在應用，公務單位在應用的時候，它又如何能夠知道？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:29.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:29.475000+08:00","text":"這是第一個。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:30.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:51.171000+08:00","text":"第二個，在你剛剛講的，AI的應用有很多的模組化，很多的模組化是基於大數據的運算，這個運算的資料跟大數據的規範及管制，還有資安如何保存這些資料、這些數據，我期待是不是給我一個完整的書面資料？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:52.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:08.005000+08:00","text":"我們到底有沒有規範，而這個規範之下，各級行政單位或者是各單位在應用的時候到底有沒有防範之能力，要有防範之能力，有稽查之能力跟能量才有用啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:08.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:12.449000+08:00","text":"是的，我們有一個稽核的制度，我們再把相關的資料提供給委員。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"何委員欣純","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:12.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:12.469000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長福隆","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:12.969000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:13.969000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:14.269000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:17.697571+08:00","text":"謝謝何欣純委員，也謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:17.997571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:21.140429+08:00","text":"接下來請徐富癸委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}