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有請我們監察院黃秘書長"},{"start":15.813,"end":42.974,"text":"好 請黃秘書長秘書長好有幾個問題我想來就教監察院你現在來看的話是很尷尬的一個機關不管是立法院或者是外界其實很多人也認為說監察院一個國家裡面的一個制度何去何從該把監察院把它給廢掉大家覺得是一個盲腸的一個機關就這些話聽在秘書長你的"},{"start":45.82,"end":73.745,"text":"你會不會覺得有點感觸我沒有感觸我只是覺得監察權絕對要繼續進行下去只是說他過去大家在討論的議題應該是說這個權利應該獨立成一個監察院還是回歸到立法院其實世界各國只要是三權分立大部分的監察權是附屬在立法院也就是說委員您質詢完之後發現有重大的問題以後進行調查"},{"start":74.585,"end":91.498,"text":"甚至可以提出相關例如彈劾等等的懲戒然後再送到懲戒法院去進行司法的訴訟如果有失職或是違法的公務人員予以免職、停職、降級、減俸等相關的懲處"},{"start":96.341,"end":116.738,"text":"這個是應該一整套的配套秘書長你提的是另外一個層次的問題但是本席在問的就是說其實在國會裡面各個政黨其實都是主張把監察院給廢掉可是大家的看法怎麼樣去廢那大家的看法有所不同民主進步黨我相信連秘書長你過去的一個主張也認為"},{"start":117.378,"end":132.655,"text":"那就修憲嘛 就來修憲我們當然是尊重 完全尊重修憲的結論那當然 完全尊重所以廢監察院的進度裡面可是你現在又碰到一個問題 就尷尬了監察院現在29個嘛 第六屆好像是不足 現在是26"},{"start":135.741,"end":159.282,"text":"二十五,法定是二十九嘛,那你現在二十五位那第六屆就到今年的七月底就結束了,就全部都離任了接下來全部的人又要另一波新的提名嘛那如果假設總統來提名,那你這個國民黨主張他就認為這個全部都不要,人就不用再補了"},{"start":159.83,"end":179.217,"text":"那台灣民眾黨他們立場也很清楚各個政黨其實都很清楚但主張會有所不同那結果好來了會產生一個狀況監察院這一屆7月31號全部結束以後你說5月份開始提名那送到立法院來那以現在的政治局勢來看的話通殺啦"},{"start":180.137,"end":187.979,"text":"就是還不會過關啦那不會過關問題來了你去把他看我為什麼說你們尷尬立法院就把你預算全部砍光光說那監察院那盲腸那不好那吃尿病聽起來我意思說你這樣會有一個感觸但是你去把他看這個在野黨其實把預算砍光光說是一個盲腸機關轉過頭來你看他又跑到你們那邊去說這個卓院長喔卓榮泰不附屬喔已請監察院來彈劾又很看重你們了所以"},{"start":208.664,"end":220,"text":"老百姓其實我一直認為監察院還是一個老百姓深淵的一個地方還是有這樣的一個功能可是碰到國內在政治鬥爭的時候監察院你就變成尚方寶劍如果要去背革的孫子"},{"start":226.988,"end":253.996,"text":"所以我是覺得說這個感觸我是指這一方面但是司法院大法官的一個釋字的632號的一個解釋裡面也確實確保整個監察院的實質的一個存續跟正常的一個運行他認為是憲法憲政機關責無旁貸的一個職責除非你去走修憲的一個路可是我有幾個問題要請教就是說如果現在都沒有任何配套"},{"start":254.736,"end":258.74,"text":"把它廢掉了以後 實質上讓它停擺啦都不會通過了"},{"start":260.646,"end":281.814,"text":"那個停擺造成的損害 秘書長你有要向社會做一個說明嗎譬如說 我很擔心就是你這個國家人權委員會那你也是在監察院現在的一個所在那如果說監委沒有辦法繼續來順利的一個任命的話那你現在對我國所推動的各項的人權調查國際人權公約這樣的衝擊會有什麼樣的一個打擊 請教"},{"start":287.556,"end":305.237,"text":"如果依照現在比如說委員不通過或是類似像預算三零這反而是一種廢監察權我們剛才一直在講到說外界說要廢監察院可是你如果沒有委員沒有預算是不是真正的權利的行使反而就不見了"},{"start":305.817,"end":325.639,"text":"那不見的情況之下他傷害的反而是我們要協助的人民我們一屆有十萬個陳情這十萬個陳情需要監察院來替他們找出行政機關的問題甚至有些是弊案來解決問題懲罰這些公務人員也就是說整次關針"},{"start":327.14,"end":350.035,"text":"有些在國家人權委員會他有許多人權上面要去維護的地方因為沒有錢沒有委員反而任何的行政處分我們都不能進行在這種情況之下反而是廢了監察權他不是廢院沒有錯但是廢了權讓整個權都沒有辦法執行的時候反而不是人民的福氣沒有人當然就沒辦法來行使這樣的一個執權這是一定的可是呢"},{"start":357.14,"end":382.69,"text":"也有一些問題啊 監察院自己本身啊你有沒有覺得看錯地方了你像譬如說啊 公視 針對第五屆跟第七屆公視董事的延宕監察院應該兩天去跟他們糾正文化部啊 對吧文化部也是我要理你啊 問題到現在也沒有真正解決啊上個禮拜四你看那個董監 董監事的這個審查委員會的八名審查委員現在人家聯名跟立法院院長韓國瑜說我們請辭喔"},{"start":384.71,"end":404.838,"text":"你去把它看這種情況嘛你看從第五屆的董事由第四屆延任長達968天第七屆董事第六屆延任也高霸歸綱審查委員的消極資格條件同意權門檻的計算方式是否採記名投票是否可以委託代理審查委員有誰來召開是立法院還是文化部"},{"start":405.658,"end":421.909,"text":"這都長期失靈了,你去跟他說,他也不會理你,你給他糾正喔,所以說監察院對這種以糾正,他不甩你沒有去改善的機關,現在大家在跟你們說,你給他糾正也不好,你們有補嗎?還是你們只能顛倒為止而已"},{"start":426.997,"end":440.475,"text":"其實我們這兩個兩次的這個所謂的那個任命的狀況我們都有糾正案那糾正案甚至到現在我們都還是在追蹤行政機關要切實的改善這問題那當然"},{"start":442.558,"end":466.421,"text":"是不是法治相關的問題就必須要行政機關他來面對讓這個問題能夠解決包括我們監察院現在假設沒有權沒有人沒有委員的時候當然也會產生類似的狀況所以我們也期待在未來在監察職權的行使上面能夠讓我們能夠為著針對人民的需要來進行監察權的行使"},{"start":466.961,"end":493.767,"text":"這個都不忍苛責啦 因為以現在的政治氣氛來看的話監察院並不是一個強勢的一個機關啦所以啊 就像秘書長所講的整個監察權的一個形式啊 就會產生這麼大的一個落差我現在 以前的監察院就不是這樣咧以前的監察院你真的殺他 嚇嚇他 打他 把他撲下去所以你把他撲下去之後 不會理你我再舉一個例子啊 你跟台大 拆文資法"},{"start":496.136,"end":513.488,"text":"這個起源地,我們監察院的調查的一個作為,你看看過去三年喔,因為都更改革開發的推進,溫州街那個地方啊,我看很多台大老師都住那個地方,五十二巷,日式公寓,那個宿舍啊,反覆的一再上演,叫一間又聽一間,這種抗爭的行動啊。"},{"start":516.71,"end":539.95,"text":"那我們眼睜睜的去看著兩位對台灣學術跟文資界有奠基貢獻的領袖文資法之父 大家講的就是成吉祿跟台灣島史觀海洋性格提出的提出者曹永和兩個人在溫州街的故居啊 你看這照片喔2024年跟2025年相繼被宣告不具文資價值"},{"start":540.931,"end":559.247,"text":"在四個月內火速拆除引起文史團體的不滿那也促使監察院去決議調查釐清我是覺得這個都非常諷刺就是說這個對台灣文化歷史記憶的一個刪除然後也意味著對文資保存意識的一個退步那"},{"start":560.59,"end":586.991,"text":"這個都是過去文資的一個推動者他本席的意思就是說如果任由這種具備高度歷史精神指標的建物被系統性的拆除那你怎麼去面對過去在艱難環境下保護台灣文化的這些前輩我為什麼會提出這樣的一個問題就是說監察院針對此案我覺得可以更強力的一個作為"},{"start":588.328,"end":605.967,"text":"老闆你看台大,不知道要怎麼去批評,你知道嗎?台大現在校方坐擁369棟50年以上的建物,其中具備文資身份者68棟,位具文資身份者301棟。"},{"start":607.629,"end":625.531,"text":"這個你們也跟我說你們責任保存的責任重大你們現在都消極維護積極去拆除你們跟他下這個很好玩你們跟他說他們都是消極維護但是很積極在拆除那也就是說台大他本身的想法就很簡單我都沒有錢"},{"start":627.473,"end":648.319,"text":"檢查案你跟他說有啦 你有兩百個校務基金啦但是他投入這些錢 投入文資的維護的經費這百分之零點三 這你如果講得很清楚但重點就是說 本席的看法就是說校方還是一樣把檢查案看衰無視檢查案調查意見 甚至以安全為由火速拆除"},{"start":649.942,"end":659.651,"text":"這種有歷史文化意義的故居實在都是應該好好去檢討的一個必要監察院後續你們還有什麼手段"},{"start":661.943,"end":686.372,"text":"因為您提到的這個案子還在整個調查中還在整個追蹤中所以還沒有結案在沒有結案的時候因為秘書長在這邊依照法令的限制我們沒辦法針對還沒有結案的個案來跟您做說明但是我們監察院的委員以及進行調查的協查的同仁一定會基於公平正義的原則把這個案子好好辦下去"},{"start":688.247,"end":715.373,"text":"這就是在說一個社會到底是否願意為整個記憶來承擔成本那其實文化保存最常被誤解的地方就是它常常說好像是這一些保存者就看中這些文化資產的人是反對改變那但是真正的保存它倒不是拒絕未來而是拒絕只有一種的未來所以文化保存"},{"start":716.223,"end":743.866,"text":"太重要了 本席提這個只有一個一個關鍵就是認為說監察院其實喔 雖然現在得到人質同意權得到日本人給你們看衰 得到國政黨給你們看衰但是就像秘書長你所講的你這個監察權的一個行使裡面喔該去把它發揮到對強度喔尤其是公視這 尤其是台大這喔你若沒有一個比較強勢的作為喔"},{"start":744.758,"end":755.118,"text":"你談這個監察權慢慢不是只有消滅在這段期間裡面呢你會發現你毫無作為是對不起這個社會的喔好不好是 謝謝委員長好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:13:59.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:03.264000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請監察院黃秘書長。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:07.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:09.555000+08:00","text":"請黃秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:09.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:10.555000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:09.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:09.895000+08:00","text":"秘書長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:10.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:29.289000+08:00","text":"有幾個問題我想來就教，以現在來看監察院是一個很尷尬的機關，不管是立法院或者是外界，其實很多人也認為一個國家裡面的制度究竟該何去何從？","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:29.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:34.473000+08:00","text":"有人認為應該把監察院廢掉，覺得它是一個盲腸機關。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:34.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:41.621000+08:00","text":"這些話聽在秘書長你的耳裡，你會不會覺得有點感觸？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:41.621000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:42.621000+08:00","text":"請教你的看法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:41.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:14:55.343000+08:00","text":"我沒有感觸，我只是覺得監察權絕對要繼續進行下去，只是過去大家在討論的議題是這個權力應該獨立成一個監察院，還是回歸到立法院？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:14:55.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:15:29.942000+08:00","text":"其實世界各國只要是三權分立的國家，大部分的監察權是附屬在立法院，也就是說，委員質詢完發現有重大的問題以後，可以進行調查、甚至提出相關例如彈劾等等的懲戒，再送到懲戒法院進行司法的訴訟，如果公務人員有失職或是違法，則予以免職、停職、降級、減俸等相關懲處，這個應該是一整套的配套。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:15:30.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:15:44.814000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你提的是另外一個層次的問題，但是本席在問的是，在國會裡面各個政黨其實都是主張把監察院給廢掉，可是怎麼樣去廢，大家的看法有所不同。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:15:46.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:15:50.700000+08:00","text":"我相信連秘書長您過去的主張也認為就來修憲，該廢掉……","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:15:50.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:15:55.044000+08:00","text":"我們當然完全尊重修憲的結論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:15:55.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:15:55.205000+08:00","text":"那當然。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:15:55.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:15:56.266000+08:00","text":"對，完全尊重。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:15:56.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:16:17.069000+08:00","text":"所以廢監察院的進度裡面，現在又碰到一個問題，就尷尬了，憲法明定監察院有29名監察委員，第6屆好像不足，現在是25位，法定是29位，第6屆到今年7月底結束，就全部都離任。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:16:17.069000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:16:18.190000+08:00","text":"是，7月31日。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:16:18.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:16:21.453000+08:00","text":"接下來全部的人又要另一波新的提名。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:16:23.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:16:34.791000+08:00","text":"假設總統來提名，國民黨的主張認為全部都不要，人就不用再補了，台灣民眾黨他們的立場也很清楚。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:16:35.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:16:52.957000+08:00","text":"各個政黨其實都很清楚，但主張會有所不同，結果會產生一個狀況，監察院這一屆7月31號全部結束以後，你說5月份開始提名，送到立法院來，以現在的政治局勢來看的話，就是通殺了，還是不會過關。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:16:53.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:16:55.638000+08:00","text":"如果不會過關，問題就來了，我為什麼說你們尷尬呢？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:16:55.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:16:59.919000+08:00","text":"立法院把你們的預算全部砍光光，說監察院是盲腸、不好、尸位素餐，我的意思是你們會讓人有這樣的感觸，但是你去看，在野黨把監察院的預算砍光光，說你們是盲腸機關，又轉過頭來跑到你們那邊去，說卓榮泰院長不副署，要移請監察院來彈劾，感覺又很看重你們。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:17:21.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:17:42.669000+08:00","text":"其實我一直認為監察院還是一個為老百姓申冤的地方，還是有這樣的功能，可是碰到國內在政治鬥爭的時候，監察院就變成尚方寶劍，如果要杯葛你們的時候，又一毛錢都不給你們，所以我這個感觸是指這方面。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:17:42.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:18:01.355000+08:00","text":"另一方面，司法院大法官釋字第632號解釋裡面也確實確保整個監察院的實質存續及正常運行，認為是憲政機關責無旁貸的職責，除非走修憲的路。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:18:02.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:18:18.328000+08:00","text":"我有幾個問題要請教，如果現在都沒有任何配套，把監察院廢掉了以後，實質上讓它停擺，就是被提名人統統都不通過之後，對於那個停擺造成的損害，秘書長，你有辦法跟社會來做說明嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:18:18.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:18:33.794000+08:00","text":"譬如我很擔心國家人權委員會也是在監察院之下，請教秘書長，如果監委沒有辦法繼續順利任命的話，對於我國所推動的各項人權調查、國際人權公約的衝擊，會有什麼樣的打擊？","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:18:39.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:19:02.542000+08:00","text":"如果依照現在譬如委員提名不被通過，或是類似像預算刪零，這反而是一種廢監察權，我們剛才一直在講外界說要廢監察院，可是如果沒有委員、沒有預算，真正的權力行使反而就不見了，不見的情況之下，傷害的反而是我們要協助的人民。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:19:03.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:19:40.655000+08:00","text":"這一屆有10萬個陳情，這10萬個陳情需要監察院替他們找出行政機關的問題，甚至有些是找出弊案來解決問題、懲罰相關的公務人員，也就是整飭官箴，在國家人權委員會，也有許多人權上面要去維護的地方，因為沒有錢、沒有委員，任何的行政處分我們都不能進行，在這種情況之下，反而是廢了監察權，它不是廢院，沒有錯，但是廢了權，讓整個權都沒有辦法執行的時候，反而不是人民的福氣。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:19:40.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:20:03.146000+08:00","text":"沒有人當然就沒辦法行使這樣的職權，這是一定的，可是也有一些問題，監察院自己本身也有讓人看衰的地方，譬如針對第5屆及第7屆公視董事的延宕，監察院已經兩次糾正文化部了，對不對？","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:20:03.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:20:14.670000+08:00","text":"文化部還是不理，問題到現在也沒有真正解決，上個禮拜公視董、監事審查委員會的8名審查委員還聯名向立法院院長韓國瑜請辭。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:20:18.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:20:39.980000+08:00","text":"你看第5屆的董事由第4屆延任，長達968天，第7屆董事由第6屆延任，也長達九百多天，其他的問題包括審查委員的消極資格條件為何、同意權門檻的計算方式是否採記名投票、是否可以委託代理、審查委員由誰來召開（是立法院，還是文化部），這些都長期失靈了。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:20:39.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:20:40.980000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:20:40.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:20:42.781000+08:00","text":"你們去跟它說、給它糾正，它也不理。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:20:44.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:20:53.128000+08:00","text":"所以監察院對於這種不甩你們的糾正、沒有去改善的機關，像現在大家笑你們的糾正沒用，你們有應對之策嗎？","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:20:53.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:20:53.889000+08:00","text":"還是你們只能點到為止而已？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:20:58.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:21:12.435000+08:00","text":"其實對於這兩次任命的狀況，我們都有糾正案，甚至到現在我們還在追蹤行政機關要切實地改善問題。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:21:12.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:21:38.401000+08:00","text":"當然，是不是法制相關的問題就必須要行政機關來面對，讓這個問題能夠解決，包括我們監察院現在假設沒有權、沒有委員的時候，當然也會產生類似的狀況，所以我們期待未來在監察職權的行使上面，能夠讓我們針對人民的需要進行監察權的行使。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:21:38.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:21:54.344000+08:00","text":"這個都不忍苛責，因為以現在的政治氣氛來看的話，監察院並不是一個強勢的機關，所以就像秘書長所講的，整個監察權的行使就會產生這麼大的落差。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:21:56.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:22:02.206000+08:00","text":"以前的監察院不是這樣，以前的監察院真的是大刀一揮、直接砍下去，結果你們現在一刀揮下去，人家也不理你。","quality":0.578},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:22:02.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:22:59.316000+08:00","text":"我再舉一個例子，就是監察院對臺大拆文資法起源地一案的調查作為，我看很多臺大老師都住在溫州街那個地方，過去3年因為都更跟開發的推進，52巷日式公寓的宿舍反覆一再上演救一間、再拆一間這種抗爭的行動，我們眼睜睜地看著兩位對臺灣學術跟文資界有奠基貢獻的領袖，就是大家講的文資法之父陳奇祿，以及臺灣島史觀、海洋性格的提出者曹永和，這兩個人在溫州街的故居於2024年跟2025年相繼被宣告不具文資價值，在4個月內火速拆除，引起文史團體的不滿，也促使監察院決議調查釐清。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:23:00.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:23:14.772000+08:00","text":"我覺得非常諷刺，這是對臺灣文化歷史記憶的刪除，也意味著對文資保存意識的退步，因為這些人都是過去文資的推動者。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:23:15.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:23:31.685000+08:00","text":"本席的意思是，如果任由這種具備高度歷史精神指標的建物被系統性地拆除，我們怎麼面對過去在艱難環境下保護臺灣文化的前輩？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:23:31.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:23:33.587000+08:00","text":"我為什麼會提出這樣的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:23:34.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:23:38.991000+08:00","text":"我覺得監察院針對此案可以有更強力的作為。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:23:42.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:23:46.074000+08:00","text":"我現在都不知道該怎麼批評臺大了，你知道嗎？","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:23:46.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:24:08.140000+08:00","text":"臺大校方現在坐擁369棟50年以上的建物，其中具備文資身分者68棟、未具文資身分者301棟，你們也跟臺大說他們保存的責任重大，現在卻消極維護、積極拆除。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:24:08.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:24:13.706000+08:00","text":"你們下的標題很好玩，你們說他們都是消極維護，但是很積極在拆除。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:24:16.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:24:48.108000+08:00","text":"其實臺大本身的想法很簡單，就是沒錢，監察院說臺大有200億的校務基金，不過這些錢投入文資的維護經費只有0.3%，你們也講得很清楚，但本席的看法是，校方還是一樣看衰監察院，無視監察院的調查意見，甚至以安全為由火速拆除這種有歷史文化意義的故居，實在有好好檢討的必要。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:24:49.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:24:51.631000+08:00","text":"監察院後續還有什麼手段嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:24:53.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:25:09.989000+08:00","text":"跟莊委員報告，因為您提到的案子還在調查、追蹤中，還沒有結案，在沒有結案的時候，依照法令的限制秘書長沒辦法針對還沒有結案的個案跟您說明……是啦。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:25:10.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:25:18.352000+08:00","text":"但是監察院委員以及進行調查的協查同仁，一定會基於公平、正義原則，把這個案子好好辦下去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:25:20.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:25:49.184000+08:00","text":"這就是在說，一個社會到底是否願意為整個記憶來承擔成本，其實文化保存最常被誤解的地方，就是常常說好像這一些保存者、看重這些文化資產的人是反對改變，但是真正的保存倒不是拒絕未來，而是拒絕只有一種未來，所以文化保存太重要了。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-15T10:25:49.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:26:25.936000+08:00","text":"本席提這個只有一個關鍵，就是認為監察院雖然現在遇到人事同意權、遇到立法院看衰你們、遇到國眾兩黨看衰你們，但是就像秘書長你所講的，你該把監察權的行使發揮到最高強度，尤其是公視、臺大的案子，你如果沒有強勢的作為，你談監察權慢慢不是只有消滅，在這段期間裡面，你會發現你毫無作為是對不起這個社會的，好不好？","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T10:26:26.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:26:27.118000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員指教。感謝。謝謝。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席：謝謝。先作會議程序預告","start":"2026-04-15T10:26:27.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:26:33.618000+08:00","text":"稍後在林倩綺委員詢答完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席：謝謝。先作會議程序預告","start":"2026-04-15T10:26:33.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:26:37.346571+08:00","text":"接下來有請張雅琳委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}