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謝謝主席 現在院長我們邀請行政院的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢方委員好 院長好 院長我想這個今天一開始要一樣經濟組的質詢呢我們是非常關切這個能源議題那當然因為近期這個伊朗美國的戰爭當然導致全國全球的能源受到影響那當然台灣也不能"},{"start":34.178,"end":42.127,"text":"免俗嘛我們也是要面對這個能源危機的問題當然面對能源危機馬上看到這個新聞是說我們預計要來重啟這個麥寮的電廠來做一個緊急發電來備用當然針對這個問題我們作為台中立委啊"},{"start":49.355,"end":64.381,"text":"根據經濟部3月之前的規劃台中火力電廠的蒸汽拆煤計畫裡面他目前還是要保留6部燃煤機組來作為緊急備用那當然政府的立場會認為說這個是基於國安任性因為我們天然氣的這個發電的這個"},{"start":67.146,"end":94.268,"text":"庫存的時間就只有大概11天左右的時間所以如果真的萬一發生像這樣子臨時的狀況可能需要燃煤作為備用的機組那其實之前包含總統也提到說可能有機會大家來討論說重啟核電的這個情形嘛那如果今天有機會可以重啟核電如果今天有機會有其他替代能源方案的話台中的火力電廠的燃煤機組你們還是一定要保留下來嘛有沒有機會做調整"},{"start":95.342,"end":122.655,"text":"他保留成為備用機組的這個政策是已經定了那麼如果有一些其他的增加的能源替代那我想那個是額外增加的為了台灣整個能源的安全我們照原來的規劃不過我跟委員承諾我過去到台中的時候我也說過我們從2034年我希望到2032年甚至我們到2030年就可以提前來檢討其他所有備用機組未來使用的狀況以及它存留的狀況好 院長"},{"start":123.695,"end":151.838,"text":"其實這兩年 你要說這三年啊我們確實有看到雙方大家的努力讓台中的火電廠的燃煤確實有下降從113年等1033年8萬噸114年降到就是有下降了13.9%所以整體來講是下降的但是今年 我要講今年當然可能因為戰爭我不知道有沒有能源掉落的問題今年同期 就是今年1月到4月跟去年1月到4月 跟前1月到4月今年反而是成長的比較多一點今年到目前為止"},{"start":152.478,"end":157.465,"text":"113年1到4月是263萬噸114年1到4月是242萬噸那今年1到4月目前已經278萬噸了所以今年1到4月當然是成長可能是因為調度的問題但我要問的是說前面兩年是逐年在下降那今年"},{"start":168.3,"end":193.149,"text":"可能會不會因為美伊戰爭的關係,台中火力電廠的燃煤會因為戰爭的關係提高嗎?它的使用會不會提高嗎?不會謝謝院長,謝謝部長的保證我們希望到年底結算的時候,我們還是要達成逐年下降的問題但是因為我們今天為什麼要特別提台中火力電廠基礎的問題因為這涉及到整個國家競爭力我想這個國家能源結構,我們特別要提到這件事情"},{"start":194.485,"end":222.775,"text":"歐盟現在已經談了所謂的CPM要談這個碳邊境調整機制那美國國外也在討論說要來討論外國污染費用的法案所以這個東西它涉及到的就是我們出口產品當然我們現在台股長這麼高那我們看到出口的表現非常好非常多屬於製造業的部分但這些製造業出去之後它的使用的這個所謂電力電力的能源成本多數我們台灣的能源結構長這樣嘛還是都是以火力發電為主那我們看到說"},{"start":224.336,"end":249.657,"text":"這個根據台大風能中心2024年調查報告顯示我們工業部門的用電佔比高達61.4%明顯高於韓國、德國、日本甚至美國那我們電力部門碳排放數據也高達全國總碳排放60%也高於韓國、日本、德國跟美國這些競爭對手所以在這樣的能源結構之下我們的出口未來會不會受到這個新的法案的影響"},{"start":250.538,"end":251.599,"text":"所以我們為什麼綠能產業要一直在趕快推進"},{"start":270.558,"end":283.224,"text":"那會符合至少剛開始國際上來講比較就是自願性的這些就是RE100那我們就盡量滿足這些RE100承諾的一些廠商可以在他們承諾的範圍裡面供應給他們的這個綠電"},{"start":286.943,"end":309.58,"text":"部長 院長這樣子喔這R100當然是過去也特別強大過但是因為現在歐盟也重新來承認核能是乾淨能源的情況下R100效果下比較少人在談了啦但是我們希望說因為你們講綠電但是他們還是承諾他們沒有改變講數據的話以去年來講我們對綠電的要求就是你本來預計去年要達到20%這個事情去年我們自己國內也沒有達成啦"},{"start":310.1,"end":332.521,"text":"所以我們當然希望說在能源轉型的部分不能這麼仰賴但是我們現在等於台灣80%以上是使用所謂的火力發電那我覺得這對產業未來的競爭力還是有影響所以我覺得除了綠電之外到底核能重啟的可能性在政府的評估裡面會不會發生到底要不要做這個事情現在在自主安全檢查的程序當中那我們的再運轉計畫"},{"start":333.717,"end":346.644,"text":"也送到了這個核安會核安會好像馬上就會開有開一個類似公聽會這樣的我想這還是要盡快來加速啦不然如果能源轉型卡住我覺得對於台灣的產業經濟因為就像提到了不管是"},{"start":348.33,"end":369.006,"text":"這個當年反核最高峰是2014年因為日本福老核災所以日本極度反核連他們自己都已經重啟那韓國更不用講所以我們台灣在亞洲面對主要競爭對手這兩個比較屬於高科技我們產業類比較相似的兩個國家所以委員您也知道嘛當初說核能不研議跟核四暫停就是在"},{"start":369.898,"end":386.2,"text":"那時候決定的我們希望那個年代確實有這狀況這十年大家的辯論 包含現在的社會共識大家也希望說要去面對確實十年前二十年前全球的主流希望大家所向飛而家遠"},{"start":386.981,"end":411.146,"text":"那今天連德國這個非核家園的創始國這個祖宗國他連自己的能源部長都出來說這個非核是一個錯誤的政策在這種前提之下我想台灣也要重新思考我們的能源政策如果一直死守著這個狀況我們現在等於是非核我們現在真的非核家園了我們完全沒有核能了但我們主要發電都是活力發電只有百分之不到百分之二十所謂的綠能我想"},{"start":412.979,"end":433.662,"text":"這個引申出新的問題這兩天的新聞昨天台北市議會在講這個翡翠水庫的問題翡翠水庫如果從今天開始今年開始他不接受這個調度去過去三年有六次要求他緊急發電去調度我們的這個供電當然因為能源問題能源不穩定所以我們必須去拜託去要求這些水利發電來支援這些發電那這也算是綠電的一部分嘛"},{"start":434.082,"end":447.289,"text":"那這樣未來如果像今年如果像翡翠水庫這類的或像台中的德基水庫這種大型的水利發電的設施它如果不願意供電或是它不願意用原來的方式原來的售價給台電的話那我們的電力狀況會不會發生影響"},{"start":451.111,"end":472.149,"text":"台電公司說是影響沒有很大因為他本來就要排放水下來那排放水下來就會同時發電那這個部分台電公司付了每一度電2塊1給他那他現在是做調度的部分他要求說一度水要3塊錢換算成一度電是12塊5"},{"start":473.871,"end":494.931,"text":"那再加上2塊5就14塊5一度墊那這樣的話這個價錢是台北市議會他們的事情我們沒有特別要關這事情但是我想說今天從這個以建為支柱啦今天從一個你剛剛台電認為說這事情可能影響衝擊不大加上部長意思這樣子因為事實上齁他在緊急調路的時候他水放下來水還是流著"},{"start":495.892,"end":513.849,"text":"還是可以 因為它主要是水庫用水嘛我知道 水沒有蒸發掉 它要放下來 沒錯我是說 如果說緊急電就是因為過去電不夠才要跟它緊急調度嘛但是基本上 水庫並沒有損失欸因為它水還在 只是從上面到下面而已那那個電可以用嗎 我是說未來"},{"start":515.236,"end":537.449,"text":"他今天是講說因為電不夠電不夠所以要給他緊急調度那你未來你要緊急調度的時候翡翠水庫現在跟你說那你如果價錢談不攏我不要接受你的緊急調度他的意思是這樣子嘛 對不對希望經濟部台電能夠跟台北市政府也能夠好好地談翡翠水庫的管理因為這個是國家的支援剛剛委員也提到我們需要綠電"},{"start":538.59,"end":561.743,"text":"我們產業需要綠電才能進入到國際市場那如果能夠透過水利的發電也是我們補充綠電很重要的一個來源所以多元發展綠電也包含在這個當中所以我要求經濟部跟台北市好好的協商在這過程當中照我們過去的條件能夠做怎麼樣的調整但是一定要以國家能夠發展能夠用電這樣的前提大家來談"},{"start":562.623,"end":570.119,"text":"當然站在立法委的角度我們擔心整體國家的這個能源調度的問題因為今天我是說藉為支柱今天如果連緊急調度"},{"start":571.618,"end":598.413,"text":"跟翡翠水庫這種些微翼的電力都需要跟他調度那表示我們能源可能在某些時候真的會有點問題所以我們才是要思考轉型跟思考更先進的能源的技術嘛這是一個很大的水庫我們連小水利都在發電了況且是這麼大的一個水庫的資源非常的珍惜好回到一開始的問題那剛剛提到說其實如果按照這個能源配比的問題如果短期內我們要走向核能或像我們現在的綠電"},{"start":599.434,"end":613.723,"text":"不夠所以包含台中這些所謂的碳我們這個火力電廠你需要留下來備用留下來備用是基於國家安全某種程度上我可以理解啦但是我要講什麼台中的火力電廠是最舊老舊的基礎"},{"start":614.895,"end":644.045,"text":"那之前有大家討論過的事情如果你要保留或是你要維持燃煤的話燃煤現在也有超燒零接機組啊那台中火力電廠能夠換成超燒零接機組嗎能不能不要再用舊的包委員事實上他的那個環保的加研齁都有在持續的在做可是說他原來的排放部分我們有加讓他更環保的改善的設備他的標準已經達到你剛才講說變成超燒零接那個可能就要拆掉重建"},{"start":644.945,"end":660.721,"text":"但是我們會用更環保的方式把它加嚴起來因為我...人員問題是一件事情討論到台中土地產永遠就兩個戰場在討論一個是人員問題一個是說如果我把它拆了電不夠的時候怎麼辦經濟部常常這樣講"},{"start":661.522,"end":679.67,"text":"但是對於在地民眾或對於環保人士或對於在意空氣品質的人來講你火力發電只要拿來臨時來調度它是舊的機組你就算把它拿去備用它真的缺電你拿一燒下去開始它的空氣汙染是很嚴重嘛所以為什麼它是一個備用所以它絕對在用電無虞的時候它就不會用"},{"start":680.59,"end":698.048,"text":"只有在非常非常緊急的狀況的時候才有可能啟動院長跟部長我問你一件事情如果你說加鹽它環保的設施等等的難道它排出來的這些毒物或排出來的這些氣體的標準能夠達到跟超燒淋接機組一樣嗎我的意思是這樣子啊"},{"start":699.471,"end":717.119,"text":"是有相當的接近喔只是說你再怎麼加鹽他退CO2的確是就沒有辦法所以我們還是如果是為了減碳的話我們還是會有一些考量我想這樣啦因為時間也不夠這部分我想晚上表達一下台中電廠我的立場啦"},{"start":718.86,"end":738.316,"text":"第一個當然最好是把它拆了第二個如果你不拆我還是希望說你除了環保這個設施把它更新之外我們期待說站在你如果能源配比因為本來當然煤炭也是一個能源的一部分但是如果能夠換成超超電機機組讓它的排放更乾淨"},{"start":739.056,"end":766.446,"text":"我覺得這個是行政院未來應該要努力的方法可以嗎因為我們要換就直接換氣了他現在已經用燃氣機組了好沒問題像今年一號機二號機燃氣機組就要上了講到燃氣喔一部燃氣機組等於兩部的燃氣機組沒錯這個我們都支持所以我還是希望說但是你要備用的話我們希望說他還是要一定程度的讓他更加先進不要再像過去這樣子排放這麼多暫控器然後現在接下來講到燃氣喔我想天然氣的問題我們大家都很關注這個事情"},{"start":769.009,"end":775.893,"text":"這個過去幾年過去我們在台北ARP的時候曾經有一件事情在討論說我們要去買阿拉斯加的天然氣"},{"start":777.379,"end":797.014,"text":"這個事情 包含說我們跟這個台美關係裡面提到說我們要去跟他們採購441美元的原油跟天然氣還有相關的電力設備那這個參議員當然我們去美國的時候有跟他討論這個事情我們要問的一件事情是說我們買的阿拉斯亞天然氣他當然現在還沒有辦法提供那我們到時候是這個採購案我們是直接跟他買"},{"start":798.462,"end":818.252,"text":"還是我們是投資這不一樣因為今天我們需要的是說有更多的能源方案或是能夠有對台灣的能源選擇更多元那你除了直接跟他採購他如果是這個館是他們的公共建設他國的公共建設那我們是這時候參加這時候加入去投資成為"},{"start":819.312,"end":839.687,"text":"投資方未來有更優惠的天然氣可以使用呢還是他蓋完之後我們才跟他買阿拉斯加這個能源的開發案現在是一個國際矚目的案件也有相當其他的幾個國家也表示了興趣高度的興趣甚至會參與那我們也在衡量投資跟採購"},{"start":840.888,"end":866.673,"text":"或是未來的這個直接的採買任何一樣對現在國家的情勢最有利我們會採行最好的方式去如果現在跟國際其他幾個國家一樣我們經過精細的核算之後投資有投資的算法未來直接採買直接採買的方式那如何取得更長期穩定供應的能源的這前提底下這由經濟部台電跟所有的部會我們在做一個很精細的研究當中"},{"start":867.253,"end":890.393,"text":"那我認為我們參與這樣一個國際的事務也讓我們在國際經驗上有更多更多的成長跟累積原則上來講的話我們就是多元採購是比較風險會比較低那所以就是說因為阿斯嘉說老實話如果將來他真的天然氣廠蓋好以後因為他距離我們最近所有的這個"},{"start":891.567,"end":916.543,"text":"就是天然氣廠 天然氣運送它會最近而且對我們來講也最安全所以就是說我們當然樂觀其成它做當然有機會我們可以參與投資也很好因為看起來它應該會賺錢如果評估以後啦就是我剛剛提到的嘛到底我們是單純的就像現在我們去跟卡達買去跟澳洲買 去跟各國買還是說未來像這個案子它這麼早它現在等於是早期階段也規劃了"},{"start":918.764,"end":944.08,"text":"那如果我們投資未來可以回收甚至未來我們有更多的參與權有更多的話語權對我們會評估如果覺得是划得來我們就來這樣做好 謝謝接下來我想最近大家提到說因為這個能源危機所以中油院長就說我們要去感謝中油不過就納稅錢就是說中油確實吸收非常多的這個費用但是我們要問一件事情到底這個3500億"},{"start":946.704,"end":967.855,"text":"我們到底是資本投資還是去補足現在的他的現金的虧損到底這個3500億的目標我們是要做什麼用的我先跟委員表示感謝中油是感謝中油那麼多的同仁在這個時候願意共體時間而且他們到海外去爭取很多的油很多的氣這個過程是辛苦的當然他的體質我們不能讓他財務發生困難未來經濟部已經在"},{"start":973.017,"end":998.517,"text":"在審核甚至在有一個相當的一個成熟的案子如何來讓中油的這個財務能夠獲得稍微的紓解那我們要考慮到紓解的財務的過程當中是不是一併要也考慮到在這段時間當中他那麼多的吸收他那麼多的額外的支出要不要在這個時候也一併算進來所以無論是讓他能夠增加融資或是讓他能夠有一個公務預算的一個撥補進去或是這個"},{"start":1002.76,"end":1022.814,"text":"剛剛講到了對他的財務的這個補貼這個增資這三件事情我們都可以在同時來考量融資或是撥補或是對他的增資我們都在考量這個過程當中經濟部已經有一個附番一個想法我今天提這個問題是因為雙方的說法對這個財務的認知是不太一樣包含董事長之前講說他認為這個對經營只是說對報表好看但這個部長提到說"},{"start":1029.398,"end":1054.39,"text":"是為了未來能源建設所以他這個3500億他的價值到底是資本投資是不是我讓這個中央公司資本各家建圈原則上不是原則上增資是為了資本投資那如果是虧損照理說是我們要預算撥補給他因為不是因為虧損應該是講就是說他政策吸收他因為政策吸收以後我們政府會"},{"start":1056.493,"end":1062.556,"text":"那個部分是用撥補的方式這樣講起來會是兩筆錢嗎?3500億之外未來如果這段時間過完結算發現虧損很嚴重主席總書正在考量要不要因為現在這次的中東戰爭有一個什麼樣的"},{"start":1076.143,"end":1090.942,"text":"財政上的給我們協助現在正在考量所以未來有可能嘛就是說現在除了本來3,500億是在資本投資是希望說改善他的資本的財務狀況之外因為中油將來還有很多的建設需要投資的"},{"start":1092.344,"end":1108.794,"text":"我知道所以現在是談的我們現在討論變今天討論出來變成會有兩筆錢嘛對不對一個是之前就說的3500億是用來改善中油的體質這個是屬於資本投資另外一個是後來後續可能會有公務預算的撥補在討論這件事情是不是是這樣嗎院長"},{"start":1110.235,"end":1135.98,"text":"這是一個 我剛剛說過融資 讓它低利率的融資或者是撥補 或者是增資都是現在在考慮的那增資的部分除了讓它財務健全之外它必須增設很多的設備 設施包括油氣的一個儲存設施也必須考量在內那這個會增加整個國家的安全儲量好 了解 沒問題好 那接下來一樣還是經濟部的問題這個算比較民生消費一點之前國內的車廠當然這國產車 車是很慘烈啦"},{"start":1139.591,"end":1165.416,"text":"這個去年前年是因為美國關稅大家都覺得啊這個車可能會降價都不敢買但是我們國產車車廠安排是有配合經濟部的這個運動運居電動化跟無碳化在去年九月推出了這個ET35的這樣子的電動車的車款這是配合政府政策推出來的這是好事但是呢他九月上市之後我要跟院長報告啊十一月我們的交通部就說要北台車補貼五十萬補助五十萬"},{"start":1167.421,"end":1184.037,"text":"鼓勵民間去採購去買這樣子電動車去做轉型電動的這個這樣的汽車去做轉型發生什麼事情呢人家九月上市備料都備好了都準備好也希望能夠外銷等等的但是因為十一月交通部說要補助五十萬但是這筆錢其實還沒有變"},{"start":1186.008,"end":1199.667,"text":"現在還沒有要執行導致什麼如果你要買車的人我們回歸本位自己想想如果今天我要買車這台車現在售價一百萬政府說明年要給我五十萬補助我當然明年才要買結果明年補助沒有下來你會買嗎不會買吧所以"},{"start":1202.9,"end":1218.865,"text":"國產車廠大家配合政府政策去做這樣的事情結果後來政府刷補助但是補助一直還沒有下來也還沒有編運算那現在問說那這個是什麼解決這等於是行政院一片好意沒錯但是你們之間的溝通協調時間出現落差那導致國內產業"},{"start":1220.56,"end":1250.018,"text":"投資下去了那沒辦法交通部給我們的這些應該他已經行政院已經在9月份核定了在114年的時候那115年的時候他就會公告這些補助的一些辦法所以一定會做那在新年度怎麼辦其實應該這樣講啦如果確定要做的話是不是就先讓民眾知道這事情確定會做那以後要補貼的人等到你再來結算後續再來處理所以他今年年底就會公告"},{"start":1251.741,"end":1274.899,"text":"交通部會將這個電動車的補助交通部現在計畫是編入到明年的預算當中去做補助補助的範圍也會擴大包括電動的大小貨車還有電動的大客車還有電動的所謂三輪的物流機車還有商用的小客車等等還有氫燃料的大客車等等都會把範圍擴大"},{"start":1276.86,"end":1299.424,"text":"我再重複一次我的這個核心問題啦是說人家配合政府政策在去年已經準備上市也就是說上市準備好了但是你要到今年年底你去年先上市人家先上市了然後去年年底你們先公告說要給大家補助但是你們今年才會今年年底才要做這件事情那等於2026年民國115年這整個車這四個季度"},{"start":1304.725,"end":1330.823,"text":"這些配合政府政策的廠商他等於血本無歸他今天營收就沒有了如果委員說這個狀況我們因為情勢是不是有所改變或是當初設想我會請交通部或是經濟部我們跟業者去談一談在過程當中需要政府有沒有再做一些政策或是實質上的協助讓他能夠在這段時間之內將這個時間延誤的時間稍微大家有一點提示一點共識我覺得我們應該做這個工程"},{"start":1335.065,"end":1348.933,"text":"我們國內業者相信政府去做了相關的這個政策我們想說還是要給他們一點這個說法啦不要說大家相信政府然後做下去之後寫本文表這對民間廠商是很大的傷害謝謝委員提醒這件事再來一樣是這個"},{"start":1351.175,"end":1368.494,"text":"民間的很多業者在討論這個事情經濟部3月份的時候有一個無人機產業發展趨勢的報告但是裡面提到呢你們當然是引述國外的媒體的報告說未來10年預估軍用無人機市場會有3.4萬但是第一個"},{"start":1369.315,"end":1398.117,"text":"根據我們自己軍備局想買的明年 明後兩年買的就已經四萬八了好 那根據這個經濟學人的報導去年台灣出口無人機的成長十三二十三點二十三十三十二點三萬台出口主要到捷克跟波蘭 這經濟學人的報告所以第一個就是說在這個經濟部出版的產業發展趨勢裡面這個數字是不是就有點不太精確會不會有這個問題就是你們報告裡面寫只要只有未來十年三點四萬可是一年 其實基本上一年就超過啦"},{"start":1399.108,"end":1410.686,"text":"這個我就覺得不只那麼少啦 應該還要更多啦這個我覺得這個是應該這個比較早期寫的吧這個是今年3月寫出來的沒關係啦 我是要提醒我提出來 我就說"},{"start":1412.082,"end":1437.335,"text":"因為無人機產業我想是國家未來重點發展的這個產業的政策我覺得數據預估上面還是要精準一點我覺得大家在看這個數據都很認真在看這也是別人拿到之後提供給我請我們過來提醒經濟部因為你如果你一開始你經濟部作為主管機關之一如果你的數據你的想法一開始配的數字是錯的那你資源的配比政策調整那可能方向也是錯的"},{"start":1438.428,"end":1461.15,"text":"所以我們當然希望說在預估上面要更精確當然你們是引述別人的但是我覺得回到國內自己產業大家會相信經濟部他不一定相信媒體可是你經濟部如果出了這份報告那就變成業界的一個指標那這個是引用其他的資料來源但是我們可能要付諸一下這個預估可能有點低估"},{"start":1462.736,"end":1488.904,"text":"對 這個是要調整的啦好不好 我這提前提完那一樣接下來討論這個問題現在台灣無人機產業就是無人機這個產品我們的法律是什麼院長或部長你們知道嗎現在我們當然之前是無人載具是有一個類似沙盒的示範型計畫那現在當然是用一些辦法來做一些規範因為現在還有一個問題無人機現在的管理在民航局"},{"start":1490.792,"end":1501.728,"text":"對所以有很多的禁飛區很多的禁止的限制不管民用軍用都很多禁止的限制那這件事情對於如果這個是我們要做的未來幾年要做的產業政策"},{"start":1502.608,"end":1521.926,"text":"那有這麼多的限制有這麼多的條條框框的限制有這麼多沒有辦法跟上全球的這個趨勢的這個限制法案限制法律限制的話有沒有思考過如果經濟部要做這個政策的主導的主管機關是不是要推出專法還是要去跟民航局溝通怎麼樣去解除這些限制包含說什麼120公尺"},{"start":1523.587,"end":1551.709,"text":"還有很多的你去看上網查那些無人機的這個專家玩家都跟我們講他常常跟我們講現在進航區來太多了比一開始公告的還多他等於在任何地方只要是非碰到他就會遇到高額的罰款那對這個產業發展他要視錯任何產業一開始一定有很多視錯的空間嗎報告委員因為現在的確是行政院有一個跨部會的一個平台在統合這個無人機的一些發展"},{"start":1552.301,"end":1576.352,"text":"那各部會都有參加那各部會相關的這些規定也在裡面做一些討論那也可以適當做一些調整那當然就是說太快去用法律來制定是不是比較好這個我們來考量因為法律有時候訂了當然是一些對這個行業某些的這個支持跟保障但是有時候反而造成一些限制"},{"start":1577.172,"end":1593.237,"text":"我們現在這邊提出來就是因為無人機他就是會跨就院長在嘛因為我們在交通委員會質詢也沒有用因為他就答應我們現在有一個無人載具的一個管理的一個機制發展跟管理的一個機制那目前我們正在把它優化把它擴大成一個統籌型的計畫"},{"start":1594.797,"end":1621.276,"text":"交通部也正在優化整個無人機管理的規則未來朝向什麼樣的方式進行我想一方面產業的發展非常非常的迅速我們要與時俱進能夠把整個全盤性綜合性的考量之後我會請相關部會這個計畫在院內是由鄭副院長來主持的我會希望他能夠緊述的有一個更明確的規範的期程讓業者也有所遵循"},{"start":1621.803,"end":1646.715,"text":"好 院長謝謝 因為這個真的是過去確實在前幾年無人機剛問世的時候大家沒有想到它應用這麼廣泛所以那時候確實以管制作為這個立法或作為這個出發點但是現在如果我們現在確實要做成產業的話我覺得這個限制包含說後面我也會跟院長今天沒有時間但是未來要討論說包含我們的自動駕駛無人車等等的這些新科技"},{"start":1647.335,"end":1665.794,"text":"他的限制現在都是被台灣很多產業是被限制住的他等於沒辦法做實驗他沒有場域可以做當國外都在做那變成落後一點點我們落後很多那你就發現一件事很有趣的一件事情如果關注股票市場台股可以漲這麼多很多都是不管是衛星也好無人車也好各項無人機也好"},{"start":1667.315,"end":1687.507,"text":"都是台廠做的但是我們自己都沒有這個產品都在國外做實驗都在國外去先做了現在有很多的公司已經有成品了對啊 但是我沒有地方用啊所以我就說在法律上行政院應該要去面對這些新科技應該是報紙的比較開放的態度而不是用過去限制的方式來做好不好那一樣從產業問題喔"},{"start":1690.2,"end":1709.237,"text":"現在我們對無人機這個產業主要放在嘉義有個園區但我想台灣就像我們科學園區有竹科中科南科一樣這個產業應該是多多益善有能力整合的區域都應該做比如台中台中這幾年過去這些年不管是航太"},{"start":1710.143,"end":1730.07,"text":"精密機械 台北精密機械有這所謂的全球影響全世界的60公里的一個產業園區吧任何零件開車一小時內一定找得到所以影響了很多全世界各項產業所謂60公里的大陸山的產業鏈所以我們有精密機械園區我們有航太科技我們有中科有做晶片"},{"start":1730.948,"end":1756.567,"text":"還有很多零件廠商還有很多手工具跟機械廠商所以理論上來講最適合量產發展無人機產業的應該台中也要變成一個園區才對啊我不知道院長或部長對這件事情看法怎麼樣嘉義的雅創一級跟現在進行二級了要進行到二級因為它已經進來的這個廠商非常多二級在開發它已經形成一個無人機的產業聚落但不會因為這樣子就完全會獨現在嘉義裡面"},{"start":1758.669,"end":1780.096,"text":"那其他的地方我想會看看地方上整個產業的特性是不是容易形成這個產業的一個聚落跟產業鏈那嘉義這個我們讓他更成熟之後應該這個經驗可以擴散到其他的地方去那嘉義市政府現在重點支持對象因為現在無人機市場在台灣很多的地方都在發展當中包括您剛才提到的"},{"start":1780.746,"end":1809.2,"text":"漢祥事實上就是在台中然後甚至於那個雷虎也是在台中他們也是有一些他的發展特色但是我們不會因為說我們在這個嘉義然後就放棄了其他的發展機會不會這樣當然不會吧但是我今天今天在這邊提出來那最主要是因為當初希望有一個地方可以有一個空域來做是非的狀態你總是要剛開始選一個地方那剛開始就是選嘉義"},{"start":1810.46,"end":1827.296,"text":"那時候那個有空間出來嘛那但是如果說未來有更多的願意發展來 五分鐘 院長台中也夠大產業也夠多就是也夠綜合性我們還是希望說未來有機會台中也成為無人機量產好 謝謝黃"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:02:18.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:02:19.927000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們邀請行政院卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T15:02:19.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:02:20.947000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:02:21.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:02:21.027000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:02:21.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:02:21.067000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:02:21.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:02:52.042000+08:00","text":"院長，今天一開始的經濟組質詢，我們一樣是非常關切能源議題，因為近期伊朗、美國的戰爭，導致全球的能源受到影響，當然臺灣也不能免俗，我們也是一樣面對能源危機的問題。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:02:53.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:03:12.959000+08:00","text":"馬上看到一則新聞是我們預計要重啟麥寮電廠作為緊急發電來備用，針對這個問題，我們作為臺中的立委……根據經濟部3月之前的規劃，台中火力電廠「增氣拆煤」計畫裡面，目前還是要保留6部燃煤機組作為緊急備用。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:03:13.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:03:29.693000+08:00","text":"當然政府的立場會認為這是基於國安韌性，因為我們天然氣的發電庫存就只有大概11天左右的時間，萬一真的發生像這樣的臨時狀況，可能需要燃煤作為備用的機組。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:03:30.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:03:46.206000+08:00","text":"其實之前包含總統也提到，可能有機會大家來討論重啟核電的情形，如果今天有機會可以重啟核電，如果今天有機會有其他替代能源方案的話，台中火力電廠的燃煤機組，你們還是一樣要保留下來嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:03:47.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:03:48.248000+08:00","text":"有沒有機會調整？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:03:49.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:04:02.208000+08:00","text":"它保留成為備用機組的政策已經定了，如果有一些其他增加的替代能源，我想那個是額外增加的，為了臺灣整個能源的安全，我們照原來的規劃。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:04:02.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:04:15.934000+08:00","text":"不過我跟委員承諾，我過去到臺中的時候，我也說過，我希望到2032年，甚至我們到2030年就可以提前檢討其他備用機組未來使用的狀況，以及它存留的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:04:15.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:04:33.488000+08:00","text":"好，院長，其實這兩年，應該說這三年，我們確實有看到大家的努力，讓台中火電廠的燃煤確實有下降，從113年的8萬噸，114年下降了13.9%，所以整體來講是下降的，但是今年……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:04:33.488000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:04:34.488000+08:00","text":"對，現在到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:04:34.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:04:50.083000+08:00","text":"今年當然可能是因為戰爭，我不知道是不是能源調度的問題，今年同期，即今年1月到4月跟去年1月到4月、跟前年1月到4月相比，今年反而是成長得比較多一點；到目前為止，113年1到4月是263萬噸，114年1到4月是242萬噸，今年1到4月目前已經278萬噸了，所以今年1到4月當然是成長，可能是因為調度的問題。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:04:50.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:05:07.782000+08:00","text":"我要問的是，前面兩年是逐年在下降，今年會不會因為美伊戰爭的關係，台中火力電廠的燃煤會不會因為戰爭的關係而提高使用？不會。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:05:09.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:05:14.524000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長的保證，我們希望到年底結算的時候，還是要達成逐年下降的目標。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:05:15.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:05:40.189000+08:00","text":"但是我們今天為什麼要特別提台中火力電廠機組的問題，因為這涉及到整個國家競爭力，有關國家能源結構，我們特別要提到這件事情，歐盟現在也在談所謂的CBAM，也就是碳邊境調整機制，美國國會也在說要來討論外國污染費用的法案，所以這個東西涉及到我們的出口產品。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:05:41.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:05:53.914000+08:00","text":"我們現在臺股漲這麼高，也看到出口的表現非常好，非常多屬於製造業的部分，但這些製造業的電力能源成本多數都還是以火力發電為主，我們臺灣的能源結構是長這樣。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:05:56.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:06:16.431000+08:00","text":"我們看到根據臺大風險中心2024年調查報告顯示，我國工業部門的用電占比高達61.4%，明顯高於韓國、德國、日本，甚至美國，我們電力部門的碳排放數據也高達全國總碳排放60%，也高於韓國、日本、德國跟美國這些競爭對手。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:06:17.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:06:23.657000+08:00","text":"在這樣的能源結構之下，未來我們的出口會不會受到這個新法案的影響？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:06:23.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:06:24.657000+08:00","text":"國外大部分都要求碳排要降低，但是如果我們出口產品本身的碳排占比就這麼高的話，這對於我國的產業競爭力會不會有直接的衝擊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:06:24.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:06:25.657000+08:00","text":"你們怎麼評估這件事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:06:24.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:06:57.224000+08:00","text":"所以這就是為什麼我們要趕快推進綠能產業，國際上來講，比較自願性的這些就是RE100，我們就儘量滿足這些承諾RE100的廠商，可以在他們承諾的範圍裡面供應他們綠電。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:07:00.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:07:13.172000+08:00","text":"部長、院長，RE100當然過去也特別強調過，但是因為現在歐盟也重新承認核能是乾淨能源的情況下，我想現在RE100也比較少人在談了啦，但是我們還是希望，因為你們講綠電……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:07:13.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:07:16.775000+08:00","text":"但是他們還是承諾，他們沒有改變。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:07:16.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:07:34.530000+08:00","text":"沒關係，以數據來講的話，去年我們對綠電的要求，你本來預計去年要達到20%，這個事情去年我們自己國內沒有達成，所以我們當然希望在能源轉型的部分不能這麼仰賴，我們臺灣現在80%以上是使用火力發電，我覺得這對產業未來的競爭力還是有影響。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:07:34.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:07:40.275000+08:00","text":"所以除了綠電之外，到底在政府的評估裡面，核能重啟的可能性會不會發生？","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:07:41.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:07:42.117000+08:00","text":"到底要不要做這個事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:07:43.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:07:53.300000+08:00","text":"我們目前正在程序當中，現在在進行自主安全檢查的程序，我們的再運轉計畫也送到核安會，核安會好像馬上就會開一個類似公聽會這樣的……","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:07:54.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:08:16.581000+08:00","text":"我想這還是要儘快加速，不然如果能源轉型卡住了，我覺得對臺灣的產業競爭力……因為就像剛剛提到，當年反核最高峰是2014年，因為日本福島核災，所以日本極度反核，現在連他們自己都已經重啟，韓國更不用講了，所以我們臺灣面對亞洲的主要競爭對手，這兩個國家是屬於比較高科技、和我們產業類別比較相似的國家。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:08:17.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:08:24.899000+08:00","text":"所以委員您也知道，當初說核能不延役跟核四暫停，就是在那時候決定的……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:08:28.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:08:49.263000+08:00","text":"當然那個年代確實有這個狀況，這是這十年大家在辯論的，包含現在的社會共識，大家也希望要去面對，確實在十年前、二十年前全球的主流是希望都要走向非核家園，德國是非核家園的創始國、祖宗國，今天連他們自己的能源部長都出來說非核是錯誤的政策。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:08:49.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:09:04.486000+08:00","text":"在這樣的前提之下，我想臺灣也要重新思考我們的能源政策，如果一直死守著這個狀況，我們現在真的是非核家園了，我們完全沒有核能了，但我們的主要發電都是火力發電，只有不到20%是所謂的綠能。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:09:05.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:09:27.501000+08:00","text":"我想這又引申出新的問題，從這兩天的新聞可以看到，昨天臺北市議會在講翡翠水庫的問題，翡翠水庫如果從今年開始不接受調度，過去三年有6次要求它緊急發電來調度供電，因為能源問題、能源不穩定，所以我們必須去拜託、去要求水力發電來支援發電，這也算是綠電的一部分。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:09:30.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:09:41.289000+08:00","text":"今年度如果像翡翠水庫或臺中的德基水庫這種大型的水力發電設施真的不願意供電或是不願意用原來的售價給台電，那我們的電力狀況會不會受到影響？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:09:45.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:09:57.602000+08:00","text":"台電公司是說影響沒有很大，因為它本來就要排放水下來，排放水下來就會同時發電，這個部分台電公司付了每一度電兩塊一給它。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:09:58.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:12.576000+08:00","text":"現在調度的部分它要求1度水要3塊錢，換算成1度電是十二塊五，再加上兩塊五就是十四塊五1度電，那這樣的話……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:12.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:14.778000+08:00","text":"部長，價錢是臺北市議會的事情，我沒有特別要管這個事情……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:14.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:15.778000+08:00","text":"是啊，這樣怎麼接受？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:15.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:23.887000+08:00","text":"但我要講的是，今天從這個見微知著，台電認為這件事情的影響、衝擊不大，剛剛部長的意思是這樣嗎？","quality":0.61},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:24.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:33.836000+08:00","text":"事實上，在緊急調度的時候，它的水放下來之後水還是留著，還是可以……因為它主要是水庫用水嘛，水沒有蒸發掉。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:33.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:34.997000+08:00","text":"我知道，它要放水下來，沒錯。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:36.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:39.601000+08:00","text":"就是因為過去電不夠才要跟它緊急調度嘛，邏輯是這樣嘛？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:40.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:46.628000+08:00","text":"對，但是基本上翡翠水庫並沒有損失，因為它的水還在，只是從上面到下面而已。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:46.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:47.489000+08:00","text":"但是那個電可以用嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:47.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:53.058000+08:00","text":"我是說未來……今天是因為電不夠，所以要跟它緊急調度……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:53.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:57.581000+08:00","text":"那個水當然可以用啊，它的取水口在下游。","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪：未來你要緊急調度的時候，翡翠水庫現在跟你說","start":"2026-04-17T15:10:57.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:10:59.702000+08:00","text":"如果價錢談不攏，我不要接受你的緊急調度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪：未來你要緊急調度的時候，翡翠水庫現在跟你說","start":"2026-04-17T15:11:00.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:11:02.384000+08:00","text":"它的意思是這樣子嘛，對不對？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:11:02.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:11:09.368000+08:00","text":"希望經濟部、台電能夠跟臺北市政府好好去談翡翠水庫的管理，因為這個是國家的資源。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:11:10.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:11:26.137000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員也提到我們需要綠電，我們的產業需要綠電才能進到國際市場，如果能夠透過水力發電，也是我們補充綠電很重要的一個來源，多元發展綠電也包含在這個當中，所以我會要求經濟部跟臺北市好好的協商。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:11:26.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:11:35.743000+08:00","text":"在這個過程當中，照我們過去的條件做怎麼樣的調整，但是一定要以國家能夠發展、民生能夠用電為前提大家來談。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:11:36.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:11:56.384000+08:00","text":"當然，站在立法委員的角度，我們擔心的是整體國家的能源調度問題，我是說見微知著，今天如果連翡翠水庫這種些微的電力都需要跟它緊急調度，表示我們的能源可能在某些時候真的會有點問題，所以我們才需要思考轉型跟思考更先進的能源技術，是不是這樣？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:11:56.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:12:02.047000+08:00","text":"它是一個很大的水庫，我們連小水力都在發電了，況且是這麼大一個水庫的資源，非常的珍惜。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:12:02.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:12:22.320000+08:00","text":"回到一開始的問題，剛剛提到整個能源配比的問題，如果短期內我們要走向核能，或是像我們現在的綠電不夠，所以包含臺中這些所謂的火力電廠也需要留下來備用，留下來備用是基於國家安全，某種程度上我可以理解。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:12:22.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:12:24.261000+08:00","text":"但是我要講的是什麼？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:12:24.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:12:38.038000+08:00","text":"臺中的火力電廠是最老舊的機組，之前大家也討論過這件事情，如果你要保留或是你要維持燃煤的話，燃煤現在有超超臨界機組，那台中火力電廠能夠換成超超臨界機組嗎？","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:12:38.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:12:39.659000+08:00","text":"能不能不要再用舊的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:12:40.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:12:52.943000+08:00","text":"報告委員，事實上它的環保加嚴都有持續在做，原來的排放部分我們有讓它更環保並改善設備……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:12:53.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:12:53.903000+08:00","text":"它的標準已經達到……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:12:54.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:13:03.550000+08:00","text":"你剛才講說變成超超臨界，那個可能就要拆掉重建，但是我們會用更環保的方式把它加嚴起來。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:13:05.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:13:14.641000+08:00","text":"能源問題是一件事情，討論到台中火力電廠永遠都有兩個戰場在討論，一個是能源問題；一個是如果把它拆了，電不夠的時候怎麼辦？","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:13:14.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:13:14.721000+08:00","text":"經濟部常常這樣講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:13:15.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:13:27.967000+08:00","text":"但是對於在地民眾、對於環保人士或對於在意空氣品質的人來講，火力發電只要拿來臨時調度，它是舊的機組，你就算把它拿去備用，當真的缺電，一燒下去它的空氣污染還是很嚴重！","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:13:29.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:13:38.855000+08:00","text":"是，所以它只是備用，在用電無虞的時候就不會用，只有在非常、非常緊急狀況的時候才有可能啟動。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:13:38.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:13:51.668000+08:00","text":"院長、部長，我問你們一件事情，你說加嚴它的環保設施等等，那它排出來這些毒物或氣體的標準能夠達到跟超超臨界機組一樣嗎？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:13:51.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:13:51.988000+08:00","text":"我的意思是這樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:13:54.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:13:55.152000+08:00","text":"相當的接近。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:13:55.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:06.397000+08:00","text":"只是再怎麼加嚴，它對CO2的確是沒有辦法，如果是為了減碳的話，我們還是會有一些考量，其他的污染物應該是比較好處理。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:06.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:35.797000+08:00","text":"我想這樣啦，因為時間也不夠，這部分我還是要表達一下我對臺中電廠的立場，第一個，當然最好是把它拆了；第二個，如果你不拆，我還是希望你除了更新環保設施之外，我很期待站在能源配比的角度，當然煤炭也是能源能源的一部分，但是如果能夠換成超超臨界機組，讓它的排放能夠更乾淨，我覺得這個是行政院未來應該要努力的方案，可以嗎？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:35.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:36.997000+08:00","text":"因為我們要換就直接換氣了，現在就是直接……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:37.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:38.378000+08:00","text":"它現在已經用燃氣機組。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:38.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:39.378000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:39.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:41.699000+08:00","text":"像今年1號機、2號機的燃氣機組就要上來……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:42.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:42.780000+08:00","text":"講到燃氣……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:43.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:45.060000+08:00","text":"1部燃氣機組等於2部燃煤機組。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:45.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:14:53.823000+08:00","text":"沒錯，這個我們都支持，如果你要備用的話，我們希望還是要一定程度的讓它更加先進，不要再像過去這樣排放這麼多髒空氣。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:14:55.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:15:09.893000+08:00","text":"接下來要講到燃氣，我們大家都很關注天然氣的問題，過去我們在談臺美ART的時候，曾經有一件事情是在討論我們要去買阿拉斯加的天然氣嘛？","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:15:09.893000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:15:13.781000+08:00","text":"對，之後。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:15:13.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:15:33.383000+08:00","text":"臺美關稅協定裡面提到我們要去跟他們採購440億美元的原油、天然氣還有相關的電力設備，當然我們去美國的時候有跟參議員討論這個事情，我們要問的一件事情是，我們買的阿拉斯加天然氣，他當然現在還沒有辦法提供，關於這個採購案，我們是直接跟他買還是我們是投資？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:15:33.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:15:57.655000+08:00","text":"這不一樣，因為今天我們需要的是有更多的能源發展，讓臺灣的能源選擇能夠更多元，你除了直接跟他採購外，這個管線是他國的公共建設，我們是在這時候加入去投資成為投資方，是未來有更優惠的油、更優惠的天然氣可以使用？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:15:58.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:16:01.198000+08:00","text":"還是等他蓋完之後，我們才跟他買？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:16:01.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:16:11.546000+08:00","text":"先跟委員報告，這個阿拉斯加能源的開發案現在是一個國際矚目的案件，也有其他幾個國家表示了高度的興趣，甚至會參與。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:16:11.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:16:22.669000+08:00","text":"我們也在衡量，投資跟採購或是未來直接採買，任何一樣如果對現在國家的情勢最有利，我們會採行最好的方式。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:16:23.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:16:40.653000+08:00","text":"如果現在跟其他幾個國家一樣，我們經過精細的核算之後，投資有投資的算法，未來直接採買會有直接採買的方式，在如何取得能源更長期穩定供應的前提底下，經濟部、台電跟所有的部會正在做一個很精細的研究當中。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:16:41.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:16:51.642000+08:00","text":"我認為我們參與這樣國際的事務，也讓我們在國際經驗上有更多更多的成長跟累積。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:16:51.642000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:16:52.642000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:16:52.642000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:16:53.642000+08:00","text":"部長請說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:16:51.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:13.072000+08:00","text":"原則上，我們多元採購的話，風險會比較低，因為說老實話，如果將來阿拉斯加的天然氣廠真的蓋好以後，因為它距離我們最近，在所有天然氣廠天然氣運送的距離，它會是最近的，而且對我們來講也最安全，所以我們當然樂觀其成。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:13.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:18.635000+08:00","text":"當然如果有機會，我們可以參與投資也很好，因為看起來它應該會賺錢。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:18.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:20.677000+08:00","text":"如果評估以後……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:21.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:27.741000+08:00","text":"就是我剛剛提到的，到底我們是單純的跟他買，就像現在我們去跟卡達買、去跟澳洲買、去跟各國買，還是去投資？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:28.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:30.423000+08:00","text":"像這個案子還這麼早，現在等於是早期階段。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:30.423000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:31.423000+08:00","text":"對，早期階段。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:30.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:38.608000+08:00","text":"也規劃了，如果我們投資了，未來可以回收，甚至未來我們有更多的參與權、有更多的話語權……","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:38.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:43.711000+08:00","text":"對，我們會評估，如果覺得划得來，我們就來這樣做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:45.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:45.512000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:45.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:17:53.397000+08:00","text":"接下來，最近大家也提到能源危機，所以院長說我們要去感謝中油，不過這是納稅錢啦！","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:17:53.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:18:05.386000+08:00","text":"就是中油去年吸收了非常多的費用，但是我要問一件事情，這個3,500億到底是資本投資，還是去補足現在中油現金的虧損？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:18:05.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:18:07.828000+08:00","text":"到底這個3,500億的目標是要做什麼用的？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:18:08.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:18:20.094000+08:00","text":"我先跟委員表示，感謝中油是感謝中油那麼多的同仁在這個時候願意共體時艱，而且他們到海外去爭取很多的油、很多的氣，這個過程是辛苦的。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:18:20.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:18:34.323000+08:00","text":"當然它的體質，我們不能讓它的財務發生困難，未來經濟部已經在審核，甚至有一個相當成熟的案子，如何讓中油的財務能夠獲得稍微的紓解。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:18:35.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:18:46.693000+08:00","text":"我們也考慮到在紓解財務的過程當中，是不是要一併考慮到在這段時間當中，它有那麼多的吸收、有那麼多額外的支出，要不要在這個時候也一併算進來。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:18:46.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:19:10.069000+08:00","text":"所以無論是讓它能夠增加融資，或是讓它能夠有一個公務預算的撥補進去，或是大家剛剛講到的，對它財務的增資，對這三件事情我們都可以同時來考量，包括融資或是撥補或是它的增資，我們都在考量的過程當中，經濟部也有相關的想法……","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:19:10.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:19:32.702000+08:00","text":"院長，我今天提這個問題是因為雙方的說法，對這個財務的認知是不太一樣，包含董事長之前說他認為這個只是讓報表好看，但部長提到是為了未來的能源建設，所以這個3,500億的價值到底是資本投資，是讓中油公司的資本更加健全，還是去補現在的缺口？","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:19:32.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:19:52.013000+08:00","text":"原則上，增資是為了資本投資，如果是虧損，照理說是我們要把預算撥補給他，不是因為虧損，應該是講他因為政策吸收，在他因為政策吸收以後，我們政府會撥補給他，那個部分是用撥補的方式。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:19:52.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:19:53.254000+08:00","text":"所以是兩筆錢嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:19:53.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:19:53.574000+08:00","text":"這樣講起來，會是兩筆錢嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:19:53.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:19:54.775000+08:00","text":"3,500億之外，未來如果這段時間過完，決算發現虧損很嚴重……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:19:54.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:20:12.966000+08:00","text":"主計總處正在考量要不要因為現在這次的中東戰爭而有一個什麼財政上的協助給我們，現在正在考量。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:20:13.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:20:14.128000+08:00","text":"所以未來有可能嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:20:14.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:20:21.317000+08:00","text":"就是現在除了本來3,500億是在資本投資，是希望改善他的財務狀況之外……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:20:21.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:20:24.922000+08:00","text":"因為中油將來還有很多的建設是需要投資的。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:20:26.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:20:30.867000+08:00","text":"我知道，我們今天討論出來會變成有兩筆錢嘛，對不對？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:20:30.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:20:41.614000+08:00","text":"一個是之前就說的，3,500億是用來改善中油的體質，這個是屬於資本投資；另外一個是後續可能會有公務預算的撥補，現在正在討論這件事情，是不是？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:20:41.614000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:20:42.674000+08:00","text":"對，在討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:20:42.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:20:42.794000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:20:44.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:21:02.158000+08:00","text":"我剛剛說過，讓他做低利率的融資或者是撥補或者是增資，都是現在在考慮的，而增資的部分，除了讓它財務健全之外，它必須增設很多的設備、設施，包括油氣的儲存設施也必須考量在內，這個會增加整個國家的安全儲量。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:21:02.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:21:04.299000+08:00","text":"好，了解，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:21:04.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:21:18.372000+08:00","text":"接下來一樣還是經濟部的問題，這個算比較民生消費一點，之前國內的車廠，當然國產車車市很慘烈，去年、前年是因為美國關稅，所以大家都覺得車可能會降價都不敢買。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:21:18.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:21:28.614000+08:00","text":"但是國產車車廠還是有配合經濟部的運具電動化及無碳化，在去年9月推出了ET35電動車車款。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:21:29.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:21:46.506000+08:00","text":"這是配合政府政策所推出來的，這是好事，但是9月上市之後，我要跟院長報告，11月交通部就說要每臺車補貼50萬，鼓勵民間去採購、去買這樣子的電動車做轉型。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:21:47.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:21:48.247000+08:00","text":"發生什麼事情呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:21:48.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:22:02.211000+08:00","text":"人家9月上市，備料都備好了，都準備好了，也希望能夠外銷等等，在11月交通部說要補助50萬，但是這筆錢其實還沒有編，現在也還沒有要執行，這導致什麼？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:22:03.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:22:12.806000+08:00","text":"我們回歸本位，自己想一想，如果今天我要買車，這臺車現在售價100萬，政府說明年要給我50萬補助，我當然明年才要買，結果明年補助沒有下來，你會買嗎？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:22:12.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:22:12.986000+08:00","text":"不會買嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:22:13.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:22:23.162000+08:00","text":"所以國產車廠大家配合政府政策去做這樣的事情，結果後來政府說要補助，但是補助一直還沒有下來，也還沒有編預算。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:22:24.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:22:26.203000+08:00","text":"現在就要問這個事怎麼解決？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:22:26.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:22:35.941000+08:00","text":"這等於是行政院是一片好意沒錯，但是你們之間的溝通、協調出現時間落差，導致國內產業投資下去了，而沒辦法……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:22:36.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:22:49.589000+08:00","text":"交通部給我們的這些，行政院已經在114年9月份核定了，在115年的時候他就會公告這些補助的辦法，所以一定會做。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:22:51.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:22:52.911000+08:00","text":"今年度怎麼辦？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:22:52.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:23:02.617000+08:00","text":"其實應該這樣講，如果確定要做的話，是不是先讓民眾知道這個事情確定會做，想要拿到補貼的人就等到他結算以後再來處理？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:23:02.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:23:07.342000+08:00","text":"所以他今年年底就會公告，交通部會公告。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:23:07.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:23:08.843000+08:00","text":"交通部會將電動車購車補助……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:23:08.843000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:23:09.843000+08:00","text":"今年年底公告嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:23:09.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:23:28.879000+08:00","text":"交通部現在的計畫是編入明年的預算當中去做補助，補助的範圍也會擴大，包括電動的大小貨車、電動大客車、電動三輪物流機車、商用小客車及氫燃料大客車等等，都會把範圍擴大。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:23:30.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:24:02.708000+08:00","text":"院長，我再重複一次我的核心問題，就是人家配合政府政策，在去年已經準備上市，去年人家先上市了，然後去年年底你們先公告要給大家補助，但是你們今年年底才要做這件事情，等於2026年、民國115年整整四個季度，這些配合政府政策的廠商是血本無歸，今年營收就沒有了。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:24:03.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:24:24.763000+08:00","text":"如果有委員說的這個狀況，我們是不是因為情事有所改變或是跟當初所設想的不同，我會請交通部或經濟部去跟業者談一談，在過程當中有沒有政府需要再做一些政策或是實質上的協助，讓他能夠在這段時間之內，大家對延誤的時間能稍微有一點共識，我覺得我們應該做這個努力。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:24:29.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:24:36.310000+08:00","text":"好，院長，謝謝，我覺得這是溝通、協調的問題，我們國內業者相信政府去做了相關的政策，我們認為還是要給他們一點說法，不要說大家相信政府……","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:24:36.310000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:24:37.310000+08:00","text":"我們請經濟部跟業者再談一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:24:36.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:24:40.072000+08:00","text":"然後做下去之後血本無歸，我想這對民間廠商是很大的傷害。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:24:40.072000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:24:41.072000+08:00","text":"我們會持續支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:24:40.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:24:41.613000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒這件事，謝謝。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:24:42.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:07.158000+08:00","text":"再來，一樣是民間很多業者在討論這個事情，經濟部3月份的時候有一個無人機產業發展趨勢報告，你們是引述國外媒體的報告，說預估未來10年軍用無人機市場會有3.4萬具，但是第一個，根據我們自己軍備局想買的，明後兩年買的就已經4萬8,000了。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:08.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:16.545000+08:00","text":"根據經濟學人的報導，去年臺灣無人機的出口量是12.3萬臺，主要出口到捷克跟波蘭。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:17.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:25.452000+08:00","text":"所以第一個，在經濟部出版的無人機產業發展趨勢裡面，這個數字是不是就不太精確？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:25.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:25.652000+08:00","text":"會不會有這個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:25.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:33.429000+08:00","text":"就是你們報告裡面寫，未來10年3.4萬，可是其實一年就超過啦，這個我就覺得……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:34.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:36.013000+08:00","text":"不只啦，沒有那麼少，應該還要更多。對啊！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:36.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:38.436000+08:00","text":"這個我覺得真的是……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:38.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:39.738000+08:00","text":"這個應該是比較早期寫的吧？因為……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:40.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:25:59.669000+08:00","text":"這個是今年3月寫出來的，沒關係啦，我是要提醒，我提出來，我是要說因為無人機產業是國家未來重點發展的產業政策，我覺得在數據預估上還是要精準一點，大家都很認真在看這些數據，這也是別人拿到之後提供給我，請我們提醒經濟部的。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:25:59.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:26.622000+08:00","text":"因為經濟部作為主管機關之一，如果你的數據在一開始就是錯的，那你的資源配比、政策調整可能方向也是錯的，所以我們希望在預估上面要更精確，當然你們是引述別人的，但是我覺得回到國內的產業來說，大家會相信經濟部，它不一定會相信媒體，經濟部如果出了這份報告，就變成業界的一個指標。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:27.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:29.805000+08:00","text":"它這個是引用其他的資料來源。對啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:30.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:32.227000+08:00","text":"但是我們可能要附註一下。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:32.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:34.089000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:34.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:35.130000+08:00","text":"這個預估可能有點低估。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:36.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:37.656000+08:00","text":"對，這個是要調整的，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:37.656000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:39.457000+08:00","text":"我是提出來讓你知道。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:39.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:46.639000+08:00","text":"接下來討論的問題是，現在臺灣的無人機產業、無人機產品的法律依據是什麼？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:46.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:48.760000+08:00","text":"院長、部長，你們知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:50.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:26:59.823000+08:00","text":"之前無人載具是有一個類似沙盒的示範型計畫，現在當然是用一些辦法來做一些規範。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:26:59.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:27:02.884000+08:00","text":"因為現在還有一個問題，無人機現在的管理在民航局。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:27:02.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:27:04.792000+08:00","text":"對，它有一些規範。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:27:04.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:27:07.976000+08:00","text":"所以有很多的禁飛區，很多禁止的限制。對。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:27:08.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:27:35.345000+08:00","text":"不管民用、軍用都有很多禁止的限制，這件事情如果是我們未來幾年要做的產業政策，有這麼多條條框框的限制，有這麼多沒有辦法跟上全球趨勢的法令限制的話，你們有沒有思考過，如果經濟部要做主導這個政策的主管機關，是不是要推出專法，還是要去跟民航局溝通，怎麼樣去解除這些限制？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:27:35.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:27:52.979000+08:00","text":"包含所謂120公尺，還有很多的問題，你上網去查，那些無人機專家、玩家還有廠商都跟我們講，現在禁航區實在太多了，比一開始公告的還多，等於他在任何地方只要試飛碰到，他就會遇到高額的罰款。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:27:54.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:27:57.703000+08:00","text":"對這個產業的發展他要試錯，任何產業一開始一定有很多試錯的空間嘛。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:27:57.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:28:14.205000+08:00","text":"對，報告委員，行政院有一個跨部會的平臺在統合無人機的一些發展，各部會都有參加，各部會相關的規定也會在裡面做一些討論，也可以適當做一些調整。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:28:15.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:28:30.332000+08:00","text":"當然這麼快去制定法律是不是比較好，這個我們來考量，因為有時候定了法律當然對這個行業會有某些支持跟保障，但是有時候反而會造成一些限制。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:28:31.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:28:33.393000+08:00","text":"我們今天在這邊提出來，就是因為無人機跨……我們……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:28:34.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:28:36.334000+08:00","text":"院長在嘛，因為我們在交通委員會質詢也沒有用……","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:28:36.334000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:28:37.874000+08:00","text":"我們來思考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:28:37.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:28:43.916000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們現在有一個無人機、無人載具發展跟管理的機制。對。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:28:44.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:29:15.256000+08:00","text":"目前我們正在把它優化，擴大成統籌型的計畫，交通部也正在優化無人機的管理規則，未來會朝向什麼方式進行，我想一方面產業的發展非常非常地迅速，我們要與時俱進，全盤性、綜合性地考量之後，我會請相關部會……這個計畫在院內是由鄭副院長主持的，我希望能夠儘速有一個更明確的規範期程，讓業者也可以有所遵循。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:29:15.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:29:41.896000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長，因為在前幾年無人機剛問世的時候，大家沒有想到它應用這麼廣泛，所以那時候確實是以管制作為立法或作為出發點，但是如果我們現在要確實做成產業的話，我覺得這個限制，包含後面我也會跟院長討論，今天沒有時間，但是未來要討論包含我們的自動駕駛、無人車等等這些新科技的限制……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:29:41.896000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:29:42.896000+08:00","text":"無人載具。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:29:42.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:30:06.978000+08:00","text":"現在臺灣很多產業是被限制住的，它等於沒辦法做實驗，它沒有場域可以做，當國外都在做，變成我們落後很多，那你就發現是一件很有趣的事情，如果關注股票市場，臺股可以漲這麼多，不管是衛星也好，無人車也好，無人機也好，很多都是臺廠做的，但是我們自己都沒有這個成品，都在國外做實驗，都在國外先做了，好不好？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:30:07.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:30:09.320000+08:00","text":"現在有，現在有很多的公司已經有成品了，甚至是成品出口。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:30:09.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:30:11.001000+08:00","text":"對啊，但是我們沒有地方用啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:30:11.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:30:20.406000+08:00","text":"所以我是說在法律上，行政院要去面對這些新科技時應該是抱持著比較開放的態度，而不是用過去限制的方式來做，好不好？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:30:21.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:30:58.008000+08:00","text":"我再問一個產業問題，現在我們無人機產業主要放在嘉義的一個園區，但我想就像我們科學園區有竹科、中科、南科一樣，產業應該是多多益善、有能力整合的區域都應該來做，比如說臺中，臺中這幾年、過去這些年，不管是航太、精密機械，臺中精密機械有一條影響全世界的60公里的產業園區，任何零件開車1小時內一定找得到，影響了全世界各項產業，有所謂60公里的大肚山產業鏈。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:30:58.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:31:15.976000+08:00","text":"我們有精密機械園區，我們有航太科技，我們有中科、有做晶片，還有很多零件廠商以及手工具跟機械廠商，所以理論上最適合量產發展無人機產業，因此臺中應該也要變成一個園區才對啊！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:31:16.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:31:18.819000+08:00","text":"我不知道院長、部長對這件事情的看法怎麼樣？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:31:18.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:31:30.547000+08:00","text":"嘉義的亞創一期，現在要進行到二期了，因為進來的廠商已經非常多，二期正在開發，它已經形成一個無人機的產業聚落，但不會因為這樣子就完全獨限在嘉義裡面。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:31:32.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:31:46.554000+08:00","text":"我想其他地方我們會看看地方上整個產業的特性是不是容易形成產業的聚落跟產業鏈，而我們讓嘉義這個聚落更成熟之後，這個經驗應該可以擴散到其他的地方去。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:31:47.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:31:49.074000+08:00","text":"當然，嘉義市政府現在是重點支持的對象嘛！","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:31:49.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:00.329000+08:00","text":"事實上，現在無人機在臺灣很多的地方都在發展當中，包括您剛才提到的漢翔就是在臺中，甚至雷虎也是在臺中……對。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:01.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:10.894000+08:00","text":"他們也是有一些自己的發展特色，但是我們不會因為現在在嘉義，然後就放棄了其他的發展機會，不會這樣子。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:10.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:13.215000+08:00","text":"當然不會嘛，但是我今天在這邊提出來是因為……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:13.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:29.245000+08:00","text":"最主要是因為當初希望有一個地方、可以有一個空域來試飛，剛開始總是要選一個地方，剛開始就是選嘉義，那時候有空間出來，但是如果未來有更多的發展……","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:29.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:41.276000+08:00","text":"院長，臺中也夠大，產業也夠多，要做綜合性考量，我們還是希望未來臺中有機會也成為無人機量產的一個聚落，好不好？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:41.276000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:42.276000+08:00","text":"好，大家來努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:41.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:41.296000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:41.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:43.224571+08:00","text":"謝謝黃委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:43.524571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:50.381714+08:00","text":"謝謝黃健豪委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各相關列席閣員的備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T15:32:50.681714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:32:56.681714+08:00","text":"接下來我們請本日口頭質詢最後一位王定宇委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}