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請主席邀請行政院左院長還有公平會陳代理主委請左院長還有陳代理主委備詢"},{"start":32.455,"end":48.625,"text":"邱委員好 院長好 院長本先有看到您在今年4月8日有出席2026Touch台灣的系列展那也有提到政府在推動是三項國家戰略產業以及AI新時代建設目標是讓百工百業和國人進入AI應用的時代"},{"start":49.726,"end":73.108,"text":"打造全民的智慧生活圈並在兩年內協助14萬家企業升級轉型特別是中小微企業這個方向本席也是支持的我也要提醒院長一件事現在AI時代已經來臨了政府的監管不能還在觀望現在AI其實都已經進入到民眾的日常生活中了不管是生活還是工作上像找資料做簡報還有翻譯甚至是"},{"start":73.788,"end":81.573,"text":"整理會議記錄都會用這個工具把生成式AI當成日常的工具來做使用那本期也看到根據2025年台灣網路報告台灣有43.19%的民眾呢"},{"start":86.684,"end":106.25,"text":"它使用深層式AI其中8.54%的民眾它是付費訂閱來做使用的所以說這代表它不是少數人或是僅限於科技圈使用的小眾產品而是變成一種新的數位基礎工具本系列看到了一個明顯的落差市場的機制已經成型了"},{"start":106.77,"end":125.808,"text":"但目前政府在競爭治理上面呈現歸宿起步還在觀察的階段公平會是到了今年3月18日才發布生成式AI競爭法的政策聲明這代表主管機關目前仍然還在整理問題建立觀察的架構而不是已經有成熟的治理工具了"},{"start":126.969,"end":142.743,"text":"院長當我們看到大家都已經在使用那企業都已經在買了那政府卻還在想著要怎麼管所以要問院長那現在深層式AI已經變成民眾的日常使用的生活工具了嗎那行政院還還停留在觀察的階段會不會太慢了"},{"start":143.97,"end":172.344,"text":"報告委員我們今年所提出的這個AI新十大建設裡面就有剛剛委員所說的最終目的要建立一個全民的生活智慧圈這個是今年在AI新十大建設裡面提到的那裡面有十大項包括西光子 量子以及這個無人載具等等但是這個的推動這個的推動今年311億的預算也在大院審理的過程當中通過了之後我們當然可以按部就班不過我已經要求各部會"},{"start":173.064,"end":189.063,"text":"先做好各種的準備一旦預算通過能夠快速的上手因為我們在製造這個硬體製造上面我們是領先軟體是落後的我們現在是不是太慢了因為現在整個硬體我們是領先的軟體的這個融合是落後的可是我們現在看到在"},{"start":189.523,"end":204.779,"text":"在國際上歐盟已經立法了那英國他也從他也建立了監測的機制美國也開始針對這個市場啟動調查了嘛那我們台灣目前還在收集資料所以北區想要請問院長還有我們公民會主委我們什麼時候才可以進入實質的治理有沒有明確的啟程"},{"start":205.58,"end":219.967,"text":"我稍微補充一下就是委員剛剛談到說我們還在收集調查其實是主要原因是在於AI這個產業目前正在快速的發展所以從公平會的角度從市場競爭的角度來看我目前不太敢太過於介入是因為它是一個動態競爭的過程"},{"start":221.488,"end":249.729,"text":"所以在我們的政策聲明裡面我們特別強調我們觀察的重點是在於整個AI產業發展當中的幾個大理由主委您自己也提到其實AI的發展它的速度是非常快的我們也看到民眾覺得AI非常好用把它當作一個聊天的機器人拿來做報告然後拿來做寫作的工具或是整理資料的系統可是真正市場的問題它不是在表面的服務而是在背後我們比較少去討論到的誰掌握算力"},{"start":250.229,"end":278.335,"text":"雲端還有資料還有整個應用入口沒有錯吧是但這個就是為什麼我們覺得我們觀察到這個問題但是同時我們也要注意到不要去扼殺企業創新的誘因是我知道公平會有觀察到這個問題你們自己也清楚列出七類的風險那這七類的風險包括關鍵投入的要素之取得限制還有雲端業者他的自我偏好那也包括了轉換成本還有搭受捆綁人才限制那包括事業結合還有聯合行為嘛這是公平會所提出的"},{"start":278.875,"end":296.091,"text":"我們也肯定主管機關現在也有看到深層是AI最大的問題不是誰比較好用而是未來會不會只剩下少數幾家說了算從而限制甚至掌控台灣整個社會從日常生活到商業競爭也包括學術的發展還有國家安全的整體未來"},{"start":296.952,"end":320.386,"text":"因為院長還有主委現在我們看到現在大家覺得AI很好用那我們習慣使用某一套AI的系統的話資料放在那邊流程也都是接在那邊的嘛所以整個團隊就會習慣使用那一套系統那時間一久了就會出現一個問題未來會很難轉換主委您知道這個問題嗎為什麼未來會很難轉換我所謂的鎖路跟套牢的效果"},{"start":320.666,"end":337.633,"text":"不過在目前這個階段我們觀察還是市場的可競爭性那你們有沒有去想到未來的轉換成本會越來越高那尤其對企業來說也是如此因為他們一旦被綁進特定的雲端系統還有模型生態系那久了平台就會牢牢掌握價格優勢"},{"start":339.453,"end":367.481,"text":"這個我們有掌握到首先跟委員報告就是說一旦消費者使用者被鎖入在某一個特定的使用模型裡面公民階段如果他是一個獨占者的話公民階段法是有規範可以處理的但是就目前我們現階段公平化的立場是我們要確保消費者在選擇過程當中他有足夠的替代選項可以選擇盡量避免在一開始選擇的時候就選擇錯誤然後事後被套牢這就是我們在政策說明裡面談到的可競爭性的概念"},{"start":367.901,"end":374.149,"text":"那你有沒有想到它未來可能會取得市場壟斷的地位這邊先請問卓院長您過去在使用電腦的時候您是用什麼系統軟體"},{"start":377.028,"end":397.72,"text":"電腦都是用Windows系統 打開來的時候是哪一家哪一家 對是用什麼系統 牌子啊Windows 微軟系統沒有錯 那就像Windows系統一般嘛那未來不只價格會很難談而且選擇也可能會變少那到時候台灣我們面對的就不是有沒有導入AI是不是我們只剩下少數幾家可以來做使用"},{"start":402.128,"end":422.297,"text":"這個講法也是我們當初跟大院在討論AI能夠智慧基本法的時候顧慮到一方面要讓它能夠研發發展一方面對這些超越我們想像之外的要有所限制所以這個平衡現在大家都在想美國美國的標準歐盟歐盟的標準大家都在想這樣的平衡"},{"start":422.557,"end":431.333,"text":"其實簡單來講跟委員報告就是創新跟競爭如何取得平衡這是目前我們正在積極的觀察那委員所關切的問題其實我們都有持續在注意"},{"start":432.009,"end":452.658,"text":"我們目前台灣的企業會不會在未來生成是AI的時代被少數的算力綁住平台你們有沒有去做過盤點像是針對它的雲端還有模型就是我們這個政策聲明其實是對業者廣泛的徵詢他們的意見所以當然算力的部分還有這個Data數據還有演算法這部分都是業者普遍關切的"},{"start":453.238,"end":472.95,"text":"我們會持續注意這個地方的發展如果說你集中在某一個特定的業者當然我們就會特別去關切未來他是不是有濫用他掌握的這些優勢來排除其他競爭我也想要請問我們有沒有去思考我們未來是不是只剩下使用權沒有選擇權公平會你們要如何發揮功能避免有這樣的情況發生"},{"start":473.912,"end":490.009,"text":"就是剛剛跟你們講我們在一開始消費者在使用的過程當中我們盡可能確保他有替代選擇的可能就是我們所謂市場可競爭性那如果選擇以後那個被選擇對象變成一個獨佔他後續濫用消費者對他的依賴公平法是有可以來處理的"},{"start":491.638,"end":514.959,"text":"主委您也是在今年3月份在立法院公開表示目前台灣的AI生態系仍在發展的初期現階段的監管方向還是以事後為主同時也談言AI它的演算法還有新型態市場行為可能會讓現行的法律難以做規範因此以著手研議修法其實這句話他很清楚的就在告訴大家問題不是沒有而是目前的工具還不夠還在準備中"},{"start":515.98,"end":536.623,"text":"當我們都已經看到AI現在的發展那麼快速可是我們沒有看到市場它的旋律可能在往少數平台集中那所以當企業導入系統資料累積然後流程綁定了未來企業可能就離不開特定平台了那我們看到幾個問題到時候企業他們的資料可能就會搬不走他們模型也換不起流程也斷不開"},{"start":537.444,"end":560.098,"text":"到時候再來談公平競爭的話或是調整競爭的結構那代價和成本就會非常高而且影響的不只是科技產業也包含已經把AI運用在他們日常營運的中小企業所以院長要請教您既然公平會都已經承認現階段還是以事後管制為主那行政院是不是應該來加大力道呢提高政策的成績"},{"start":560.822,"end":578.423,"text":"是委員今天整個的質詢的重點應該是提醒政府在這方面我們的腳步慢了這確實是我剛剛說過我們在硬體製造領先軟體的融合整合我們是落後的所以現在在AI新時代建設裡面我們對主權AI還有算力中心我們也當作十大項裡面的一個區塊"},{"start":579.204,"end":593.721,"text":"要全力的來做現在我們在高雄的算力中心等等已經出具這個雛形我們將來發展在全國各地那主權AI現在發展的比較慢但速發部也一直朝這個方向跟國會各種的努力我希望我們有"},{"start":594.221,"end":611.54,"text":"你也提到我們在AI的發展台灣具備優勢不過那是在硬體所以希望在軟體方面院長也可以以更前瞻或更前瞻的治理方向還有更快的速度來提出一個具體的成就如果我們有主權AI能夠建立得更完整的話那我們更有自己的主權跟選擇性這個也是一考量"},{"start":612.459,"end":635.345,"text":"主委這邊本席也提供給您一個建議面對深層式AI的快速擴張也希望行政院現在目前也不能只停留在原則宣示應該建立深層式AI的競爭風險跨部會盤點由國發會還有經濟部公平會速發部來共同成立一個盤點機制因為我們要定期的掌握算力雲端還有整個資料市場的集中情形"},{"start":635.985,"end":663.033,"text":"那也對大型平台他們在關鍵投入還有大售的綁定還有資料封鎖轉換成本上面的優勢我們也應該要提出更清楚的結合審查然後還有競爭治理原則跟我們這個AI新時代建設以及13項戰略產業我們第一個大方向大目標已經確定了我們往第二個階段就是每一個後端它都必須產生它相關的主要的產業是什麼它必須要著力的重點在哪裡它要發展的途徑"},{"start":664.553,"end":686.273,"text":"這個期程該怎麼樣我們才能夠編定下一階段的預算院長我們要確保就是這些本土新創還有中小企業在投入的時候他們也有公平的接取算力還有支援的機會那接下來和院長討論數位平台那現在民眾消費的方式已經改變了不管是購物啊訂飯店還是找服務很多人都不是一家一家的找而是會先打開平台然後"},{"start":686.773,"end":705.991,"text":"到網路上面看看排序看推薦那這也代表一件事平台他提供的不只是資訊而是在實際決定誰先被看到還有誰排在前面誰有機會成交那這已經是很多商家每天都在面對的現實那公平會呢在2024年4月分別採訪agoda跟booking.com各100萬"},{"start":706.892,"end":714.299,"text":"我們的執法前提是任務關鍵字的廣告如果會造成消費者誤以為這個企業跟那個企業是彼此有關係的事實上並不是所以他誤導消費者去購買"},{"start":729.793,"end":746.833,"text":"他自己的平台其實對民眾來說其實很容易懂啊他明明要找A可是被平台半路帶去找B嘛那其實平台的競爭他不只是在比價格那他也在比誰能掌握路口誰能攔截流量那誰能先接觸到消費者那對商家來說他們最重要的是他們不是"},{"start":747.173,"end":764.358,"text":"他們的商品不夠好而是如果平台沒有被看見他們就沒有成交的機會了那院長當平台透過攔截流量然後搜尋攔截還有攔截流量影響了交易那這已經不是單純的商業手法了嗎那是公平競爭的問題所以政府有沒有發現這樣的問題"},{"start":766.412,"end":785.638,"text":"這公平度應該有處理的經驗我跟我們報告一下你這邊難解的意思就是說因為有一些比較不知名的品牌他利用關鍵比較知名的關鍵字來導引消費者去造訪他自己的網站那我們在我們的處理原則裡面我們的原則是基本上這是一個數位經濟從某個角度來看他是提供消費者一個更多元的"},{"start":786.358,"end":810.053,"text":"那主委你有沒有掌握到那這些平台所以它不能產生誤導的效果這些平台是不是多半來自跨國的公司都有都有本國的也有本國的也有那請教主委那之前UberEats跟Foodpanda的台灣業務結合案公平會在2024年12月25日就已經否決掉這件結合案那理由是這項對限制競爭的不利益大於整體競爭的利益"},{"start":811.534,"end":838.683,"text":"那會顯著降低市場的競爭並可能損及合作餐廳然後還有消費者的權益那現在Uber改由轉軟投資的Grab準備再次進行收購公平會收到申請了嗎已經收到了我們現在目前正在請他們補件當中那也可以先請公平會這邊說明你們的態度嗎我們的態度一樣就是按照公平法的分析架構來分析這個案子那這個案子跟之前的Uber Eats的案子最大的差別是在於之前的案子結合以後市佔率高達九成"},{"start":839.443,"end":868.065,"text":"那這個案子基本上還是維持雙戰但是很多我知道委員的關切他背後實際的控股的情況那這個就是我們審查的一個重點因為您聽到他的市佔率就是大於高達九成嘛那這也讓我們看到平台他不是越大越方便就好那當市場越集中我們討論市場的問題喔他商家的溢價空間就會變小了那平台的規則未來也會更難談嘛那消費者表面上有選擇他們其實還在懷疑同樣的一種的APP嘛"},{"start":868.565,"end":895.552,"text":"那在背後的競爭者也減少了那這不只發生在外送平台也包括像是訂房還是電商廣告或其他服務平台型的服務那所以只要平台他同時掌控的流量然後他就不是一個中介而是規則的制定者那院長公平會過去已經透過像這樣子的外送平台結合案清楚示警平台過度集中會對消費者有危害那行政院有沒有更完整的數位治理競爭策略呢"},{"start":898.112,"end":915.231,"text":"剛剛主委所說的如果這種合併併購的方式他背後的力量我們必須清楚去查詢出來避免造成壟斷而造成不公平的競爭或是這個減損了市場的競爭能力那這個部分這個公平會議已經有現有的機制我希望公平在這個事件上要"},{"start":916.311,"end":937.848,"text":"加嚴來認清這個事實我們在審查一定會把這個背後實際的控股情況對 因為現在大量的交易都已經移到平台上面了那本席這邊也希望院長進行責成各部會 剛才本席有提到的像針對演算法 然後還有平台的排序規則與機制來責成各部會 建立一個共同判斷的機制好的 謝謝謝謝邱委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":945.103,"end":947.177,"text":"下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:03:49.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:03:49.241000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:03:49.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:03:53.968000+08:00","text":"請主席邀請行政院卓院長，還有公平會陳代理主委。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-28T10:03:55.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:03:57.532000+08:00","text":"請卓院長還有陳代理主委備詢。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:04:13.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:04:13.755000+08:00","text":"邱委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:04:14.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:04:14.776000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:04:15.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:04:39.494000+08:00","text":"院長，本席有看到您在今年4月8日有出席2026 Touch Taiwan系列展，也有提到政府在推動13項國家戰略產業以及AI新十大建設，目標是讓百工百業和國人進入AI應用時代，打造全民智慧生活圈，並在兩年內協助14萬家企業升級轉型，特別是中小微企業，這個方向本席也是支持的。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:04:40.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:04:59.891000+08:00","text":"我也要提醒院長一件事，現在AI時代已經來臨了，政府的監管不能還在觀望，現在AI其實都已經進入到民眾的日常生活中了，不管是生活還是工作上，像找資料、做簡報，還有翻譯，甚至是整理會議紀錄，都會用這個工具，把生成式AI當成日常的工具使用。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:05:01.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:05:22.508000+08:00","text":"本席也看到，根據2025年臺灣網路報告，臺灣有43.19%的民眾使用生成式AI，其中8.54%的民眾是付費訂閱使用的，所以這代表不是少數人，或是僅限於科技圈使用的小眾產品，而是變成一種新的數位基礎工具。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:05:23.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:05:39.001000+08:00","text":"本席也看到一個明顯的落差，市場的機制已經成型了，但目前政府在競爭治理上面呈現龜速起步，還在觀察的階段，公平會到了今年3月18日才發布生成式AI競爭法的政策聲明。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:05:39.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:05:46.788000+08:00","text":"這代表主管機關目前仍然還在整理問題，建立觀察的架構，而不是已經有成熟的治理工具了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:05:47.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:06:03.723000+08:00","text":"院長，當我們看到大家都已經在使用，企業都已經在買了，政府卻還在想著要怎麼管，所以要問院長，現在生成式AI已經變成民眾日常使用的生活工具，行政院還停留在觀察的階段，會不會太慢了？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:06:04.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:06:23.479000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們今年所提出的AI新十大建設，裡面就有剛剛委員所說的，最終目的要建立一個全民生活智慧圈，這個是今年在AI新十大建設裡面提到的，裡面有十大項，包括矽光子、量子，以及無人載具等等。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:06:23.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T10:06:24.479000+08:00","text":"本席也有去看這裡面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:06:24.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:06:42.554000+08:00","text":"但是這個的推動，今年331億的預算也在大院審理的過程當中，通過了之後我們當然可以按部就班，不過我已經要求各部會先做好各種準備，一旦預算通過能夠快速地上手，因為在硬體製造上面，我們是領先的，軟體是落後的。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:06:42.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:06:43.735000+08:00","text":"院長，本席剛剛有提醒您，我們現在是不是太慢了？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:06:43.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:06:44.716000+08:00","text":"因為現在整個AI市場……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:06:44.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:06:48.100000+08:00","text":"硬體我們的領先的，軟體的整合是落後的。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:06:48.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:06:59.953000+08:00","text":"硬體領先是無庸置疑的，可是我們現在看到在國際上，歐盟已經立法了，英國也建立了監測的機制，美國也開始針對這個市場啟動調查，臺灣目前還在蒐集資料。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:07:00.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:07:05.179000+08:00","text":"所以本席想要請問院長還有公平會主委，我們什麼時候才可以進入實質的治理？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:07:05.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:07:05.759000+08:00","text":"有沒有明確的期程？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:07:06.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:07:28.092000+08:00","text":"委員，我稍微補充一下，委員剛剛談到我們還在蒐集調查，其實主要的原因是在於AI這個產業正在快速的發展，從公平會的角度、從市場競爭的角度來看，目前不太敢太過於介入是因為它是一個動態競爭的過程，所以在我們的政策聲明裡面特別強調，我們觀察的重點是在於整個AI產業發展當中的幾個大元素。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:07:28.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:07:53.930000+08:00","text":"主委，您自己也提到AI發展的速度是非常快的，我們也看到民眾覺得AI非常好用，把它當作一個聊天的機器人、拿來做報告、拿來當做寫作的工具，或是做為整理資料的系統，可是真正市場的問題不是在表面的服務，而是在背後我們比較少去討論到的，誰掌握算力、雲端還有資料、整個應用入口，沒有錯吧？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:07:54.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:08:00.911000+08:00","text":"是，這就是為什麼我們觀察到這個問題，但是同時也要注意到不要去扼殺企業創新的誘因。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:08:01.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:08:19.315000+08:00","text":"我知道公平會有觀察到這個問題，你們自己也清楚列出七類風險，這七類風險包括關鍵投入要素之取得限制，還有雲端業者的自我偏好，也包括轉換成本，還有搭售捆綁、人才限制、包括事業結合，還有聯合行為，這是公平會所提出的。是。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:08:19.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:08:32.327000+08:00","text":"我們也肯定主管機關現在有看到生成式AI最大的問題不是誰比較好用，而是未來會不會只剩下少數幾家說了算，從而限制，甚至掌控臺灣整個社會？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:08:32.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:08:37.091000+08:00","text":"從日常生活到商業競爭，也包括學術發展，還有國家安全的整體未來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:08:38.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:08:56.983000+08:00","text":"院長、主委，現在大家覺得AI很好用，我們習慣使用某一套AI系統的話，資料放在那邊、流程也都是接在那邊，所以整個團隊就會習慣使用那一套系統，時間一久就會出現一個問題：未來會很難轉換。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:08:56.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:08:57.764000+08:00","text":"主委，您知道這個問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:08:57.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:08:59.345000+08:00","text":"為什麼未來會很難轉換？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:08:59.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:05.267000+08:00","text":"我知道這就是所謂的鎖入跟套牢的效果，不過在目前這個階段，我們觀察的還是市場的可競爭性，就是說……","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:05.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:09.209000+08:00","text":"可是你們有沒有想到未來的轉換成本會越來越高？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:09.209000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:11.190000+08:00","text":"轉換成本……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:11.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:18.633000+08:00","text":"對企業來說也是如此，因為他們一旦被綁進特定的雲端系統，還有模型生態系，久了之後平臺就會牢牢掌握價格優勢。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:20.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:21.233000+08:00","text":"是，這個我們有掌握到。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:21.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:48.461000+08:00","text":"首先跟委員報告，一旦消費者、使用者被鎖入在某一個特定的使用模型裡面，如果它是一個獨占者的話，公平交易法是有規範可以處理的，但是就目前現階段公平會的立場是要確保消費者在選擇過程當中，有足夠的替代選項可以選擇，儘量避免在一開始選擇的時候就選擇錯誤，然後事後被套牢，這就是我們在政策說明裡面談到的可競爭性概念。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:48.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:51.925000+08:00","text":"那你有沒有想到它未來可能會取得市場壟斷的地位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:52.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:55.149000+08:00","text":"這邊先請問卓院長，您過去在使用電腦的時候，您是用什麼系統軟體？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:55.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:58.028000+08:00","text":"電腦打開來的時候是哪一家……是用什麼系統？牌子？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:09:58.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:09:59.029000+08:00","text":"電腦都是用Windows系統。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:04.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:06.413000+08:00","text":"Windows微軟系統沒有錯吧？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:06.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:18.700000+08:00","text":"就像一般的Windows系統，未來不只價格會很難談而且選擇也可能會變少，到時候臺灣面對的就不是有沒有導入AI，而是我們只剩下少數幾家可以使用。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:18.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:23.128000+08:00","text":"行政院有沒有盤點？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:23.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:40.256000+08:00","text":"委員這個講法，也是我們當初跟大家在討論AI人工智慧基本法顧慮到的，一方面要讓它能夠研發、發展，一方面對這些超越我們想像之外的要有所限制，現在大家都在想這個平衡。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:40.256000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:41.256000+08:00","text":"本席也支持我們做本土的研發及發展，可是也需要時間，所以目前……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:40.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:43.277000+08:00","text":"美國有美國的標準，歐盟有歐盟的標準，大家都在想這樣的平衡，鬆緊各有不同。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:43.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:47.404000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實簡單來講就是創新跟競爭如何取得平衡。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:47.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:49.307000+08:00","text":"目前這部分我們正在積極觀察。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:49.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:52.312000+08:00","text":"委員所關切的問題，其實我們都有持續在注意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:53.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:10:59.392000+08:00","text":"目前臺灣的企業會不會在未來生成式AI的時代被少數的算力綁住？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:10:59.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:11:01.313000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有盤點過平臺？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:11:01.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:11:02.893000+08:00","text":"像是針對它的雲端還有模型。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:11:03.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:11:24.624000+08:00","text":"我們在政策上其實是對業者廣泛的徵詢意見，所以算力、data數據還有演算法都是業者普遍關切的，我們會持續注意這方面的發展，如果有集中在某一個特定的業者，我們當然就會特別關切未來他是否有濫用掌握的優勢排除其他競爭。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:11:25.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:11:30.508000+08:00","text":"請問你們有沒有思考未來是不是只剩下使用權而沒有選擇權？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:11:30.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:11:33.930000+08:00","text":"公平會要如何發揮功能避免這樣的情況發生？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:11:34.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:11:50.989000+08:00","text":"就是剛剛跟委員報告，我們在使用者的使用過程當中盡可能確保有替代選擇的可能，即所謂市場可競爭性，如果選擇以後，當被選擇的對象變成獨占，後續濫用消費者對它的依賴，公平法是可以處理的。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:11:52.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:12:10.494000+08:00","text":"主委，您今年3月份在立法院公開表示，目前臺灣的AI生態系仍在發展的初期，現階段的監管方向還是以事後為主，同時也坦言現行法律可能難以規範AI的演算法還有新型態市場行為，因此已著手研議修法。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:12:11.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:12:15.939000+08:00","text":"其實這句話很清楚地在告訴大家，問題不是沒有，而是目前的工具還不夠，還在準備中。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:12:16.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:12:31.757000+08:00","text":"當我們已經看到現在AI的發展那麼快速，可是沒有看到它的權力可能在市場上往少數平臺集中，所以當企業導入系統、資料累積且流程綁定了，未來企業可能就離不開特定平臺。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:12:32.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:12:51.932000+08:00","text":"我們看到幾個問題：到時候企業的資料可能會搬不走、模型換不起、流程也斷不開，屆時再來談公平競爭或是調整競爭的結構，代價和成本就會非常高，而且影響的不只是科技產業，也包含已經把AI運用在日常營運的中小企業。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:12:52.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:13:00.998000+08:00","text":"請教院長，既然公平會都已經承認現階段還是以事後管制為主，行政院是不是應該加大力道並提高政策的層級？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:13:01.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:13:21.085000+08:00","text":"是，委員今天整個質詢的重點，應該是提醒政府在這方面的腳步慢了，確實是如此，我剛剛說過我們在硬體製造領先，但軟體的整合是落後的，所以現在在AI新十大建設裡面，我們也將主權AI還有算力中心當作十大項的一個區塊，要全力來做。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:13:21.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:13:27.653000+08:00","text":"現在我們在高雄的算力中心等等已經初具雛形，將來會發展至全國各地。是。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:13:28.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:13:34.701000+08:00","text":"主權AI現在發展的比較慢，但是數發部也一直朝這個方向跟國科會作各種的努力，我希望我們用很快的速度把它整合起來。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:13:34.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:13:46.693000+08:00","text":"院長有提到臺灣在AI發展具備優勢，不過那是在硬體，所以希望在軟體方面，院長也可以以更前瞻的治理方向還有更快的速度提出具體的政策。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:13:46.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:13:52.520000+08:00","text":"如果我們的主權AI能夠建立得更完整，我們更有自己的主權跟選擇性，這也是一個考量。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:13:53.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:14:28.548000+08:00","text":"本席也提供主委一個建議，面對生成式AI的快速擴張，希望行政院現在不能只停留在原則宣示，應該建立生成式AI競爭風險的跨部會盤點機制，由國發會還有經濟部、公平會、數發部共同成立，我們要定期的掌握雲端算力還有整個資料市場的集中情形，對於大型平臺在關鍵投入還有搭售的綁定、資料封鎖、轉換成本的優勢，我們也應該要提出更清楚的結合審查還有競爭治理原則。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:14:28.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:14:41.392000+08:00","text":"AI新十大建設以及十三項戰略產業，我們的第一個大方向、大目標已經確定了，我們往第二個階段前進，就是每一個後端都必須產生相關的主要產業是什麼？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:14:41.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:14:43.333000+08:00","text":"它必須要著力的重點在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:14:43.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:14:46.074000+08:00","text":"它要發展的途徑及期程該如何？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:14:46.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:14:48.376000+08:00","text":"我們才能夠編定下一階段的預算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:14:48.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:14:57.784000+08:00","text":"院長，我們要確保這些本土新創還有中小企業在投入的時候，他們也有公平的接取算力還有資源的機會。是。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:14:57.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:15:22.447000+08:00","text":"接下來和院長討論數位平台，現在民眾消費的方式已經改變了，不管是購物、訂飯店還是找服務，很多人都不是一家一家的找，而是會先打開平台，然後到網路上面看排序、看推薦，這也代表一件事，就是平台提供的不只是資訊，而是實際決定誰先被看到、誰排在前面、誰有機會成交，這已經是很多商家每天都在面對的現實。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:15:22.447000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T10:15:27.892000+08:00","text":"公平會在2024年4月分別裁罰Agoda跟Booking.com各100萬，原因是兩家公司在關鍵字的廣告中使用競爭對手的名稱，然後把原本要找其他業者的消費者導回到自己的平台，這樣的作法公平會也認定會造成混淆。","quality":0.272},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:15:27.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:15:51.454000+08:00","text":"我們的執法前提是這種關鍵字的廣告如果會造成消費者誤以為這個企業跟那個企業是彼此有關係的，事實上並不是，所以它誤導消費者去它自己的平台購買。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:15:51.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:04.909000+08:00","text":"其實對民眾來說這很容易懂，就是他明明要找A，可是被平台半路帶去找B，其實平台的競爭不只是在比價格，也在比誰能掌握入口、誰能攔截流量、誰能先接觸到消費者。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:05.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:12.834000+08:00","text":"對商家來說，他們最在意的事，不是他們的商品不夠好，而是如果平台沒有被看見，他們就沒有成交的機會了。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:13.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:25.358000+08:00","text":"院長，當平台透過搜尋攔截還有攔截流量影響了交易，這已經不是單純的商業手法了，而是公平競爭的問題，政府有沒有發現這樣的問題？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:27.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:28.933000+08:00","text":"我覺得公平會應該有處理，有經驗了。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:28.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:46.618000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告一下，你這邊攔截的意思是，有些比較不知名的品牌利用比較知名的關鍵字來導引消費者去造訪他自己的網站，按我們的處理原則，基本上這是數位經濟，從某個角度來看它是提供消費者一個更多元的角度……","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:47.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:48.819000+08:00","text":"主委有沒有掌握到這些平台……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:49.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:50.440000+08:00","text":"但是它不能產生誤導的效果。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:50.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:53.162000+08:00","text":"這些平台是不是多半來自跨國的公司？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:53.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:16:55.443000+08:00","text":"都有，本國的也有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:16:58.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:17:23.678000+08:00","text":"請教主委，有關之前Uber Eats跟foodpanda台灣的業務結合案，公平會在2024年12月25日就已經否決掉這件結合案，理由是這個案子對於限制競爭的不利大於整體競爭的利益，會顯著降低市場的競爭，並可能損及合作餐廳還有消費者的權益，那現在Uber改由專案投資的Grab，準備再次進行收購，公平會收到申請了嗎？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:17:23.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:17:27.739000+08:00","text":"已經收到了，我們現在正在請他們補件當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:17:28.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:17:31+08:00","text":"可以請公平會先說明你們的態度嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:17:31+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:17:43.045000+08:00","text":"我們的態度一樣，就是按照公平法的分析架構來分析這個案子，這個案子跟之前Uber Eats的案子最大的差別在於，之前的案子結合以後市占率高達九成，但這個案子基本上還是維持雙占。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:17:43.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:17:49.210000+08:00","text":"我知道委員也關切它背後實際控股的情況，這就是我們審查的一個重點。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:17:49.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:18:11.626000+08:00","text":"主委，您聽到他的市占率高達九成，這也讓我們看到平台不是越大、越方便就好，當市場越集中，我們談論市場的問題，商家的議價空間就會變小了，平台的規則未來也會更難談，消費者表面上有選擇，但他們其實在滑同一種app，背後的競爭者也減少了。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:18:12.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:18:25.309000+08:00","text":"這不只發生在外送平台，包括訂房、電商、廣告或其他平台型的服務，所以只要平台同時掌控了流量，他就不只是一個中介，而是規則的制定者。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:18:25.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:18:36.492000+08:00","text":"院長，公平會過去已經透過像這樣的外送平台結合案清楚示警，平台過度集中會對消費者有危害，行政院有沒有更完整的數位治理競爭策略？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:18:39.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:18:59.613000+08:00","text":"如同剛剛主委所說的，這種合併、併購方式背後的力量，我們必須清楚查詢出來，避免造成壟斷，造成不公平的競爭，或是減損了市場的競爭能力，這個部分公平會已經有現有的機制，我希望公平會在這個事件上要加嚴來認清事實。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-28T10:18:59.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:19:02.795000+08:00","text":"我們在審查的時候一定會詳細審查背後實際的控股情況。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"邱委員若華","start":"2026-04-28T10:19:02.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:19:17.487000+08:00","text":"對，因為現在大量的交易都已經移到平台上面了，本席也希望院長針對剛才本席有提到的演算法、平台的排序規則與機制，責成各部會建立一個共同判別的機制。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T10:19:17.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:19:18.328000+08:00","text":"好的，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-28T10:19:18.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:19:18.848000+08:00","text":"謝謝邱委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-28T10:19:26.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T10:19:28.177000+08:00","text":"下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。","quality":1}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}