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在場委員先進列席政務機關事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請國科會的陳副主委還有速發部的侯次長以及中研院的彭副院長"},{"start":29.154,"end":46.271,"text":"好 請三位機關副所長相配訊臺 謝謝好 莊委員好副院長 副主委跟次長今天我們談的就是數位透明度的分級兼顧資安與取用科專企劃能否來支援能源設施科研研究我們看一下"},{"start":47.714,"end":59.225,"text":"原生數據到底我們是要限制取用還是放寬使用這在我們的AI基本法當中討論很多像歐盟GPAR它是為了保護隱私限制取用但是相對的就是影響到AI的發展速度現在"},{"start":60.424,"end":85.599,"text":"歐盟大概是主要先進國家AI的應用程度發展最慢的但是相對我們看這個吉普利的畫風這是在日本他們政府的法令規定放寬取用可以惡創但是這樣就造成了原來的創作者他會影響到創作者的權益先請問國科會副主委你認為我國的AI基本法之後的取向會偏向哪一邊只能選一邊不能兩邊都選"},{"start":87.959,"end":100.858,"text":"其實MI基本法的設定的過程當中真的是兩邊橫頻的橫頻的副院長你也是這麼認為嗎就是說沒有絕對二選一我想要學界來形成一個共識好 那麼侯次長呢"},{"start":104.291,"end":123.719,"text":"我認為我們目標是希望放寬取用但是採用技術的方式來保障個人的隱私很好 那麼侯市長說明了因為這部會的權責不同因為速發部要發展它當然要降低取用的限制但是我們看到資料的取用被取用的有基本上兩個對價關係如果你AI的數據庫要取用"},{"start":124.719,"end":141.807,"text":"那對方商業機制他允許你取用但是你要不要有回饋機制這我們討論的但是如果是民眾他有涉及到隱私你要取用但要去識別化這就是對價關係的設計但是對於AI取用的對價關係國科會在未來AI基本法之後的各項的行政規定有沒有一個思考"},{"start":143.124,"end":153.974,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們跟速發部應該會共同一起來努力好 跟速發部啦好 那我舉個例子我猜猜看你們知道這是什麼原因這叫做地籍資料啊你知道什麼叫做地籍登記簿騰本嗎"},{"start":155.609,"end":176.469,"text":"沒有人 有印象沒有 譬如說我要是去銀行貸款 我要去申請我本人的名下的土地他會出現我的名字 出生年月日 我的身份證字號 我的住址因為銀行要對保嘛 然後呢 我有沒有設定抵押但是如果今天我是狗仔隊 我去看陳主委 欸常出入某棟房子我根據門牌要查到他的地級 我又查出來說 欸那個地級登錄成本 土地是誰的"},{"start":177.711,"end":205.638,"text":"如果說全街路啊我就可以說誒這個陳主委跟某某地主有一些不尋常的曖昧關係是不是所以要限制嘛但是如果說我是一個房客我是陳租人我要去租你的土地我知道好歹知道你的土地的地主吧所以政府提供的資訊因著他的用途的不同身份的不同他有些取用的不同所以是登記人任何人還是關鍵人取用的不同好但是有一種情況"},{"start":206.778,"end":225.832,"text":"我舉個例你們聽聽看最近我在跟能源署討論台灣的未來的電力配置他說未來能源署會根據因為用電的需要知道目前每個地區的用電需求量所以他會把每個電表的大數據下放到地方政府讓民眾用電人可以知道"},{"start":226.993,"end":246.079,"text":"該地區的用電狀況這個很可怕啦我先問一下副院長齁如果說你住在某個區公所那個區公所你上網可以看到所有家的電表我可不可以找那個不在家的人去偷東西啊對所以這一部分應該是個人資料保護法要檢討的問題是的所以呢當我們形成大數據"},{"start":247.518,"end":263.845,"text":"政府要供人民使用的時候一定要有一些考量我們看一下但是這些還有一些不平等不只是身份不同用途不同還有算力的不平等同樣的算力強的人他可以掌握比較多的資訊相對弱的人就沒辦法取用我舉個例子上個月有一個新聞"},{"start":265.186,"end":283.545,"text":"法國航空母艦戴高樂他撥彎戰雲吃井他要去馳援結果因為有個軍官在航空母艦上跑步他用一個慢跑的APP結果有人去查他這個APP這個資料是公開的他在印度洋上跑步所以馬上人家查出航空母艦的軌跡了"},{"start":284.966,"end":307.512,"text":"好 陳文辰主委那麼這個就是數位平等的數據禁用權還有數位隱蔽要確保治安國安這兩個部分還要獲取到你的算力未來會不會在立法的時候考慮到這個例如一點的不同請往下看來 就是這樣你們會不會有一個分級數位透明 數位隱蔽的相關執法這個可能要問蘇巴布 來"},{"start":314.085,"end":333.908,"text":"是跟委員報告這個部分確實在我們現在整個推動法律修正的這個過程會有風險分歧的方式來不是風險分歧不好意思風險分類那您剛剛講到這個部分其實風險分類中非常重要的一個部分就是隱私這個部分還有會在"},{"start":335.229,"end":363.081,"text":"不好意思會在不同的應用場景底下我們會去跟各部會對接希望他們可以考慮到這件事情好 要注意到其實媒體的數據禁用權因著你的算力多寡不同其實對有人來講是隱蔽的對他來講是透明的那如果你的算力不夠雖然是透明公開的資料但是你都沒辦法使用就像我說的地級登記簿藤本我想在座的人有多少人用過可能不曉得我可以申請第二類第三類可以往下看"},{"start":364.281,"end":392.653,"text":"現在工商時報前天的新聞台電董事長說AI資料中心的用電規模堪比半寶體產業但是它廠房面積比較小可以建在都會地區會對電網形成挑戰什麼意思我們往下看所謂的算力靠電力電網要韌性但是電網裡面的變電所除能設置燃料電池0B效應怎麼去處理有沒有講過這個問題陳主委你們在設這些算力分布的時候"},{"start":393.553,"end":418.082,"text":"還是哪一個要回答這個你們在強調算力的同時有沒有考慮到power couple好 跟委員回報我們在建置算力中心的時候是都有跟台電保持聯繫有確保供電的來源但是台電很困擾你們只是需求者困難誰去排除"},{"start":418.982,"end":446.963,"text":"台電要去排除那台電怎麼排除我舉個例子往下看過去我們在教育委員會我們常常問文資保文資保存常常發現被認定古蹟後就被一把火放火燒掉為什麼因為怕地主怕被限制因此後來呢有人從都市計畫下手想說一個叫做什麼隆基率移轉我給你隆基率獎勵但是你這個台灣銀行你這個古蹟你不能拆你不能改建但是你的發展權我換算成隆基率移轉到你台銀的其他地方大樓有沒有聽過"},{"start":448.325,"end":472.393,"text":"有聽過融進與移轉的這個獎勵吧好 這個是誰想出來的這個就是需要社科的研究才有辦法去解決單單是台電它有能力去創設一個融進與移轉的獎勵嗎很難 但是你們要算力 你們要電力問題都要去解決林碧設施 變電所 台北市 不容興建那請問你在台北市你NVIDIA你要落腳這裡 你怎麼辦陳主委你認為呢"},{"start":480.24,"end":507.158,"text":"這個我們可以鼓勵學者做這方式是 不是鼓勵你們有科專計畫所以我是覺得你們要鎖定不是只看算力而已你們要思考到整個我們的科研在我們的國家社會不是超然於社會而外的所以我們的科研計畫要支援的不是只是一些科學應用還要在應用過程中有些社科的調查才能協助政府機關不只統合這些科研資源還能夠發展出應對的有效政策同不同意"},{"start":508.959,"end":532.913,"text":"同意好那最後呢我們就往下看就是最後的結論了所以呢希望在AI基本的框架下請速發部可以針對不同的算力國科會去評估這個數位分級透明數位隱蔽的相關資法兩個部位共同合作可以嗎兩位陳副主委跟侯市長請對著麥克風答覆好那我知道呢今天那個國科會啊好像"},{"start":534.387,"end":562.883,"text":"沒有這些社會人文科學好像有吧好像是你們有一個人文及社會科學研究發展處是不是未來的科專計畫是不是能夠專門針對能源設施如果克服0b效應去做一些這個社科方面的研究調查這是中研院還是國科會的我看你們這邊有一個人文及社會科學研究發展處對我們有支援支持人設的研究是那你們有沒有那個叫做科專計畫"},{"start":565.004,"end":593.187,"text":"國科會的不是叫科專計畫我們就是研究計畫有研究計畫那科專計畫是由誰來分配由國發會來分配經濟部有經濟部來分配經濟部他不是說他說是用國科會分配完的時候他用他們分配給他的部分那你們問問看後面有人要回答了那應該是指科科技計畫科技計畫科技計畫好那麼未來的科技計畫可不可以在對其他部會框定的額度內或者說你們優先來支援這樣社科的調查跟研究"},{"start":594.216,"end":609.078,"text":"還是眾議院想自告奮勇眾議院你們也有法律研究所科技計畫是這樣就是各部會他會提出一個申請由我們這邊來做一個希望你們未來審核的時候要多多支持這樣的社科研究好嗎好 謝謝謝謝莊嘉賓"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T11:59:05.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T11:59:10.117000+08:00","text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T11:59:11.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T11:59:20.983000+08:00","text":"有請國科會陳副主委、數發部侯次長以及中研院彭副院長。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T11:59:22.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T11:59:25.778000+08:00","text":"請三位機關副首長上備詢臺，謝謝。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T11:59:25.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T11:59:26.778000+08:00","text":"委員早安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭副院長信坤","start":"2026-04-29T11:59:26.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T11:59:26.479000+08:00","text":"鍾委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T11:59:28.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T11:59:51.965000+08:00","text":"副院長、副主委及次長，今天我們要談的是數位透明度分級兼顧資安與取用，科專計畫能否支援能源設施社科研究，我們來看一下原生數據，到底我們是要限制取用，還是放寬取用，這在AI基本法當中討論很多，像歐盟GDPR是為了保護隱私限制取用，但是相對的就是影響到AI的發展速度。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T11:59:52.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:00:16.418000+08:00","text":"現在歐盟大概是主要先進國家AI應用程度發展最慢的，相對地我們看到吉卜力畫風，日本政府的法令規定放寬取用、允許二創，但是這樣就影響到原來創作者的權益，先請問國科會副主委，你認為我國AI基本法之後的取向會偏向哪一邊？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:00:16.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:00:18.599000+08:00","text":"只能選一邊，不能兩邊都選。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:00:20.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:00:24.885000+08:00","text":"其實AI基本法設定的過程當中，真的是兩邊衡平的。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:00:25.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:00:27.869000+08:00","text":"衡平的，副院長，你也是這麼認為嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭副院長信坤","start":"2026-04-29T12:00:28.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:00:32.596000+08:00","text":"沒有絕對二選一，我想學界要形成一個共識。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:00:32.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:00:33.838000+08:00","text":"好，侯次長呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2026-04-29T12:00:37.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:00:43.213000+08:00","text":"我們的目標是希望放寬取用，但是採用技術的方式來保障個人隱私。很好！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:00:44.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:00:55.738000+08:00","text":"侯次長說明了，因為部會的權責不同，數發部要發展，當然要降低取用限制，但是我們看到的「資料取用」與「被取用者」，基本上，這有2個對價關係。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:00:55.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:00.900000+08:00","text":"如果AI的數據資料庫取用，對方的商業機制允許你取用，那你要不要有一個回饋機制？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:01.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:01.821000+08:00","text":"這是我們要討論的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:02.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:08.004000+08:00","text":"但是如果民眾他有社交隱私，你要取用，那就要去識別化，這就是對價關係的設計。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:08.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:14.787000+08:00","text":"但是對於AI取用的對價關係，國科會在未來「AI基本法」實行之後的各項行政規定，有沒有一個思考？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:16.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:19.147000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個我們跟數發部應該會共同的一起來努力。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:19.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:20.008000+08:00","text":"好，跟數發部啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:20.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:22.110000+08:00","text":"那我舉個例子，你們猜猜看這是什麼東西？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:22.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:23.891000+08:00","text":"這叫做「地籍資料」。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:24.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:26.974000+08:00","text":"你知道什麼叫做「地籍登記簿謄本」嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:28.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:29.430000+08:00","text":"沒有人有印象？沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:29.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:39.059000+08:00","text":"譬如說：我去銀行貸款前，我要去申請我本人名下的土地資料，它就會出現我的名字、出生年月日、身分證字號和住址，因為銀行要對保嘛！","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:39.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:40.501000+08:00","text":"還有我有沒有設定抵押？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:41.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:49.449000+08:00","text":"但是如果今天我是狗仔隊，我看到陳副主委常出入某棟房子，那我就可以根據門牌號查到他的地籍，然後我就可以根據那個地籍登記簿謄本查出那個土地是誰的。","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:50.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:51.931000+08:00","text":"如果說全揭露啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:52.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:57.633000+08:00","text":"我就可以說這個陳副主委跟某某地主有一些不尋常的曖昧關係，是不是？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:58.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:01:58.833000+08:00","text":"所以要限制嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:01:59.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:02:07.775000+08:00","text":"但是如果我是一個房客、承租人，我要去租你的土地，我好歹要知道你是這個土地的地主吧！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:02:08.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:02:15.877000+08:00","text":"所以政府提供的資訊要因著它的用途不同、身分的不同，有不同的取用項目，所以會分成登記人、任何人、以及登記名義人利害關係人。","quality":0.574},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:02:17.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:02:20.679000+08:00","text":"但是有一種情況，我舉個例子，你們聽聽看。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:02:21.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:02:42.014000+08:00","text":"最近我在跟能源署討論臺灣未來的電力配置，它說未來能源署會根據……因為用電者需要知道目前每個地區的用電需求量，所以它會把每個電表的大數據下放到地方政府，讓民眾、用電人可以知道該地區的用電狀況。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:02:42.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:02:50.616000+08:00","text":"這個很可怕，我先問一下副院長，如果說你住在某個區公所，那個區公所可以上網看到所有家庭的電表，那我可不可以找不在家的去偷東西？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"彭副院長信坤","start":"2026-04-29T12:02:52.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:02:56.998000+08:00","text":"對，所以這個部分應該是個人資料保護法要檢討的問題。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:02:56.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:03:02.479000+08:00","text":"是的，所以當我們形成大數據要來供人民使用的時候，一定要有一些考量。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:03:03.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:03:09.182000+08:00","text":"但是這些還是有一些不平等，不只是身分不同、用途不同，還有算力的不平等。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:03:09.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:03:15.065000+08:00","text":"同樣的算力，強的人就可以掌握比較多的資訊，相對較弱的人就沒有辦法取用。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:03:15.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:03:36.525000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，上個月有一個新聞，法國航空母艦戴高樂因為波灣戰雲吃緊，它要去馳援，結果有個軍官在航空母艦上跑步，因為他有使用一個慢跑app，這個app的資料是公開的，結果有人去查，發現他在印度洋上跑步，人家馬上就查出航空母艦的軌跡了。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:03:39.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:03:51.390000+08:00","text":"所以這個就是數位平等的數據近用權，還有數位隱蔽，因為要確保資安和國安除了，這兩個部分，還要溯擴及到你的算力，請問陳副主委，未來在立法的時候，會不會考量到立足點的不同？","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:03:56.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:04:00.052000+08:00","text":"你們會不會有一個分級數位透明、數位隱蔽的相關子法？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:04:00.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:04:00.192000+08:00","text":"這個可能……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:04:00.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T12:04:07.085000+08:00","text":"可能要問數發部？對，是。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2026-04-29T12:04:07.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:04:18.738000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，這個部分確實在我們現在推動法律修正的過程，我們會有風險分類。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2026-04-29T12:04:19.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:04:37.713000+08:00","text":"您剛剛講到的這個部分，其實是風險分類中非常重要的一個部分，就是隱私的這個部分，我們會在不同的應用場景下去跟各部會對接，希望他們可以考慮到這件事情。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:04:38.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:04:45.696000+08:00","text":"好，要注意到，因為媒體的數據近用權，會因著你的算力多寡不同，其實對有的人來講是隱蔽的；對有的人來講是透明的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:04:46.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:04:53.620000+08:00","text":"如果你的算力不夠，雖然是透明公開的資料，但是你也沒有辦法使用，就像我說的地籍登記簿謄本，我想在座的有多少人用過？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:04:53.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:04:55.220000+08:00","text":"大家可能都不曉得自己可以申請第二類、第三類的謄本。","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:04:56.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:12.007000+08:00","text":"我們來看工商時報前天的新聞，台電董事長說，AI資料中心的用電規模堪比半導體產業，但是廠房的面積比較小，可以建在都會地區，但會對既有電網形成挑戰。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:12.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:12.307000+08:00","text":"什麼意思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:12.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:13.108000+08:00","text":"我們往下看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:13.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:21.711000+08:00","text":"所謂的算力靠電力；電網要韌性，但是電網裡面有變電所、儲能設施、燃料電池，鄰避效應要怎麼去處理？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:23.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:25.633000+08:00","text":"陳副主委，你們在設這些算力分布的時候，有沒有想過這個問題？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:26.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:27.253000+08:00","text":"還是哪一個人要回答？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:28.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:32.695000+08:00","text":"你們在強調算力的同時，有沒有考慮到「Power Couple」？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:37.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:46.660000+08:00","text":"跟委員回報，我們在建置算力中心的時候，都有跟台電保持聯繫，有確保供電的來源。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:47.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:51.062000+08:00","text":"但是台電很困擾，你們只是需求者，困難誰要去排除？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:52.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:05:54.024000+08:00","text":"台電要去排除，那台電怎麼排除？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:05:54.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:06:02.050000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，過去我們在教文委員會，我們常常談到文資保存，文資保存常常在被認定為古蹟之後就被一把火放火燒掉，為什麼？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:06:02.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:06:19.963000+08:00","text":"因為地主怕被限制，因此後來有人就從都市計畫下手，想出一個叫做「容積率移轉」，我給你容積率獎勵，但是你臺灣銀行的這個古蹟不能拆、不能改建，但是你的發展權，我換算成容積率移轉到你臺銀的其他地方大樓，有沒有聽過？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:06:21.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:06:22.926000+08:00","text":"有聽過容積率移轉的這個獎勵吧！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:06:23.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:06:25.546000+08:00","text":"好，這個是誰想出來的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:06:27.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:06:35.570000+08:00","text":"這個就需要社科的研究才有辦法去解決，單單是台電，它有能力創設容積率移轉獎勵嗎？很難。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:06:35.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:06:44.953000+08:00","text":"但是你們要有算力、要有電力，問題都要解決，但是鄰避設施，像變電所在臺北市是不容興建的，那請問你，NVIDIA要落腳到臺北市，你要怎麼辦？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:06:44.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:06:45.373000+08:00","text":"陳副主委，你認為？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:06:53.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:06:54.381000+08:00","text":"我們可以鼓勵學者做這方面的研究。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:06:54.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:16.135000+08:00","text":"不是鼓勵，你們有科專計畫，我是覺得你們要鎖定，不是只看算力而已，你們要思考我們的科研在國家社會不能超然於社會而外，所以我們的科研計畫要支援的不只是科學應用，還要在應用的過程中有一些社科的調查，這樣才能協助政府機關。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:16.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:22.119000+08:00","text":"我們不只要統合這個科研資源，還要能夠發展出應對的有效政策，同不同意？同意。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:22.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:23.480000+08:00","text":"好，那最後呢！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:23.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:24.280000+08:00","text":"我們就往下看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:24.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:36.767000+08:00","text":"這是最後的結論，所以希望在AI基本法的框架下，請數發部針對不同的算力；請國科會評估推動分級數位透明、數位隱蔽的相關子法，2個部會共同合作，可以嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:36.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:39.189000+08:00","text":"2位，陳副主委跟侯次長。OK！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:39.189000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:40.189000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:39.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:39.709000+08:00","text":"請對著麥克風答復。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:39.709000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:44.652000+08:00","text":"是，我們會這麼做。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:44.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:07:53.370000+08:00","text":"國科會好像有個人文及社會科學研究發展處，是不是？是。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:07:54.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:02.715000+08:00","text":"未來的科專計畫，是不是能夠專門針對能源設施如何符合鄰避效應去做社科方面的研究調查？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:03.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:06.217000+08:00","text":"這是中研院的，還是國科會的？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:07.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:10.940000+08:00","text":"我看你們這邊有一個人文及社會科學研究發展處。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:10.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:12.961000+08:00","text":"對，我們有支持人社的研究。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:13.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:15.883000+08:00","text":"是，那你們有沒有科專計畫？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:18.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:20.306000+08:00","text":"國科會的不叫「科專計畫」。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:20.306000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:21.306000+08:00","text":"那你們叫什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:20.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:21.127000+08:00","text":"我們就是研究計畫。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:21.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:23.689000+08:00","text":"研究計畫，那科專計畫是由誰來分配？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:23.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:24.610000+08:00","text":"由國發會來分配？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:26.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:26.031000+08:00","text":"經濟部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:26.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:31.155000+08:00","text":"由經濟部來分配，但是經濟部說是國科會分配完了之後，他用他們分配給他的部分。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:32.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:34.017000+08:00","text":"來，你們問問看，後面有人要回答？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:34.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:37.720000+08:00","text":"那應該是指科技計畫。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:37.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:38.321000+08:00","text":"科技計畫，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:38.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:43.245000+08:00","text":"那未來的科技計畫可不可在對其他部會匡定的額度內？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:43.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:46.167000+08:00","text":"或者你們優先的來支援這樣的社科調查跟研究？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:47.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:48.178000+08:00","text":"還是中研院想自告奮勇？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:49.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:51.102000+08:00","text":"中研院你們也有法律研究所。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:52.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:08:58.853000+08:00","text":"科技計畫是這樣，就是各部會會提出一個申請，然後由我們這邊來做一個統籌。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-29T12:08:58.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:09:01.958000+08:00","text":"好，希望你們未來審核的時候，要多多支持這樣的社科研究，好嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員炳宇","start":"2026-04-29T12:09:01.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T12:09:02.058000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T12:09:02.558000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T12:09:06.843714+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢，請官員回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T12:09:07.143714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T12:09:11.143714+08:00","text":"接下來有請楊瓊瓔委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}