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我要請一下經濟部工部長請經濟部工部長"},{"start":19.723,"end":46.76,"text":"陳委員早安部長早因為今天我們在處理經濟部主管的分營業基金的部分因為是針對115年度的預算坦白說應該去年在處理的事情我們拖到今年才處理所以其實我們在看待的時候坦白說是相對寬容的方式在看待這件事情可是我這邊要特別講一下狀態因為我們在經濟部特別收入基金特別收入基金裡面有五個分基金"},{"start":47.78,"end":69.906,"text":"那其中有一個推廣貿易基金的部分就是115年度的編列預算比114年度少了1.9億元少了1.9億元那少了這1.9億元當中的時候我就去看它裡面詳細的一個內容看它詳細內容裡面那我們就發現了一件事情從民國111年到114年的預算項目中"},{"start":74.167,"end":101.005,"text":"推廣貿易基金的貿易推廣工作裡面都有一個很重要的就是要持續推動加入跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定就是CPTPP的這個部分而且通常是在實施內容當中的最優先項目因為它放在第一點顯然它是最重要的狀態可是我們看到115年的預算當中的時候CPTPP完全被"},{"start":101.585,"end":107.873,"text":"提出這個預算的說明內容之外是表示我們已經放棄CPTPP的這個這個推動的動作了是這樣子的一個情況嗎可不可以請部長做一個詳細的一個回答"},{"start":115.131,"end":116.212,"text":"大部分的預算還是從經濟部來的喔"},{"start":134.582,"end":150.499,"text":"邊在我們這邊沒有錯邊在我們這邊就邊在公務預算裡面嗎就不在基金預算可是問題是我們從這個這個項目當中的時候直接把它給拿掉是不是有表示我們對這個部分有打算就是不再那麼積極要去推"},{"start":152.898,"end":165.936,"text":"因為以前的時候 因為以前經貿團辦公室的預算科目也是這樣的一個編列的方式 為什麼115年度跟114年度有這樣的一個差別好 報告委員其實在"},{"start":167.358,"end":171.804,"text":"在推動CPTPP就經濟部來講我們會透過雙邊的場域比如說跟個別國家在雙邊諮商的時候會把它提出來但是這些雙邊跟這些雙邊國家諮商的時候這些預算其實不會秀出來是CPTPP會是跟我們雙邊的經濟合作裡面的價值這都可以理解齁"},{"start":186.161,"end":204.663,"text":"包括這都會跟外交部可能也有一些關係可是我要講的狀態是說為什麼在114年以前就沒有這樣子的問題嗎為什麼115年的部分的時候這個部分的工作內容項目的說明會特別把它剔除出去為什麼會在115年的時候跟111年到114年都不一樣"},{"start":209.003,"end":226.756,"text":"應該是沒有什麼不一樣我們看起來 你看我的簡報檔裡面的時候很清楚看到因為我們在這個111年到114年的預算當中的時候都有特別提到要持續推動CPTPP的部分115年的說明裡面就沒有了"},{"start":228.617,"end":246.007,"text":"我們經貿臺灣辦公室在處理這個問題的時候從110年到115年到現在都還是一樣那為什麼在這個非業基金的部分的時候會被踢出來報告委員 事實上雖然這個上面沒有呈現但是我們事實上在工作上都有把CPTPP"},{"start":247.208,"end":260.338,"text":"這個說法很難被接受啦為什麼因為之前我們經貿談判辦公室的前副總代表就是顏衛星他特別提到的狀態是說政府在爭取加入CPTPP的時候消極敷衍"},{"start":262.119,"end":287.842,"text":"那麼現在經濟部這邊的時候呢在負責這樣的一個推廣的一個基金的部分的時候又完全刪除這樣的一個工作的一個說明所以我覺得感覺上是不是就當時我們的副談判的總代表的時候他講的東西就是一個很實際的一個狀態所以從原本他個人覺得經濟部這邊消極敷衍從這個預算當中看起來就變成實錘了嘛"},{"start":288.702,"end":311.671,"text":"報告委員沒有這樣的狀況事實上我們這兩天的跟一些貿易夥伴國家在進行雙邊的這個對話其實都有把CPTPP放進來只是我們這邊不方便去跟委員報告說是哪現在不方便114年以前就方便嗎差別在哪裡你告訴我嘛現在進入什麼深水區嗎深水區的時候這部分該做的說明還是得做說明啊"},{"start":313.171,"end":339.067,"text":"針對這樣的一個狀態我覺得很難被理解我想我們再來補充因為實際有做只是沒有寫在上面而已那我們就把它補強進來因為我們雙邊對話的時候一定都會講到這個部分如果是屬於CPTPP會員那麼3月份的時候就是卓院長他有特別提到要針對CPTPP這部分要強化工作小組增加人手請問現在有沒有在做"},{"start":340.947,"end":362.66,"text":"強化工作小組增加人手行政院已經有在做這樣的思考據我們了解他會跟我們討論我們也會討論因為現在原來這個OTN他以前全部都是其他的這個單位派駐過去但是他現在已經我在當秘書長的時候可是大部分預算都是經濟部掂列的嘛"},{"start":363.581,"end":389.326,"text":"已經有給六個名額是一個行政院下面常駐的人員了所以他不會再做調動那是不是再額外增加我想行政院現在也在持續在討論當中那我們想我們會配合那針對CPPV部分的時候因為我特別提到因為我在前幾次的那個質詢的時候請問過一個附編的一個貿易協定的部分像經濟部這邊能夠好好的去做因為這邊"},{"start":390.326,"end":408.591,"text":"這個CPTPP當中的時候其實也是在WTO架構當中的一個負面貿易談判協定所以我們希望就是這個部分對台灣對我們國家的一個整體的一個經貿的一個發展是有幫助的我們希望經濟部真的要用力去做而不是就是"},{"start":409.571,"end":429.509,"text":"真的像我們前經貿談判的副總代表顏惠欣講的狀態政府對這個部分根本是一個敷衍消極的動作我們不希望看到這樣的情況 好不好不會 不會那麼接下來我要特別提到一下部長因為上次我有特別問到一個部分我們的一個核能政策轉彎了嘛"},{"start":431.01,"end":444.415,"text":"核能政策轉彎的時候我那時候有質詢一個狀態我希望經濟部這邊能夠提出一個狀態就給我們知道我們這個能源政策轉彎成本是多少兩個月 當時說兩個月內給我一個報告你們經濟部給了經濟部給了 報告給了裡面一個數字都沒有"},{"start":453.585,"end":479.747,"text":"針對這樣子一個部分的時候我們的政策可以轉彎沒有問題我們也希望台灣的能源政策要轉彎可是政策轉彎之前的時候需要有很多的一個評估成本效益分析很重要我們只是要知道我們這個政策轉彎花了多少錢結果經濟部提出來的報告裡面一個數字都沒有我請同仁說明一下"},{"start":481.449,"end":498.135,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在河三跟河二都還要進行再運轉跟這個自主安全檢查所以所有的將來的這個設備要更換到多少我們現在是沒有辦法知道所以要等到那個檢查完了以後確定這個部分都沒有問題可是我在想說一個政策的形成一定會有做過評估以經濟部來講的時候"},{"start":506.018,"end":523.264,"text":"數字量化的評估一定是重要的你現在給我的所有狀態的時候兩個月給我的狀態當中一個數字都沒有坦白說國民黨黨團在野黨團也提出一個數字九千億永遠提出到上兆的一個狀態因為大家評估的一個成本不一樣那說實話"},{"start":525.205,"end":551.338,"text":"以民間來說的時候我們在評估的時候可能會更寬鬆一點去看所以可能有人把集會成本都算進來啊把整個綠燈那個等夠的價格的價差都把它算進來啊等等都不一樣可是經濟部總得有經濟部自己的主張跟看法嘛你們總得提出一個數字出來啊兩個月之後什麼數字都沒有就寫了一堆文章出來這樣的文章的時候我們隨便從"},{"start":552.418,"end":571.286,"text":"相關資料裡面就可以得到可是我們其實要特別去監督一個狀態就是這樣的一個政策轉彎到底成本是多少老百姓總得知道把政策可以轉彎可是我們也知道錢要花在哪裡經濟部可不可以在一個月內把這個部分盡可能把它落實出來"},{"start":572.486,"end":583.443,"text":"我們民間在野黨可以要求估算的時候很寬鬆你們可以估算得很保守啦或者你們把比方說合適的一個認定損失提出來這也是一個數字嘛結果什麼都沒有"},{"start":587.476,"end":606.716,"text":"我們現在剛剛同仁提到了嘛就是說現在這個自主安全檢查的部分還要跟這個這只是成本其中的一部分部長這是其中的一部分而已是是我了解就是說我們現在跟這個就是原廠再溝通看看是不是可以給我們一個大致上的一個"},{"start":607.637,"end":628.328,"text":"就是至少一個空間一個區間那這樣我們比較好有一個基礎來算要不然的話我們政府部門提出來假如數據有爭議的話我想也不好政策的一個轉彎當中說比方說台電之前的虧損那是不是是怎麼樣的一個情況虧損主要還是照顧民生"},{"start":628.888,"end":653.66,"text":"理解 理解所以說我覺得在這整個政策的一個調整當中所以我剛剛提到在野黨在或者是民間的學者他們在估算這東西的時候可以很廣義的來估算行政部門你們可以很狹義的來估算可是我們知道我們想要知道一個具體的一個狀態到底是怎麼樣因為照顧民生這件事情跟能源政策事實上一直都要改變所以我才說"},{"start":654.62,"end":666.694,"text":"以經濟部的角度你們覺得這個政策的改變成本是多少總要有一個數字嘛經濟部不講數字講什麼呢一個月給我們很清楚的一個答案好不好我們"},{"start":667.932,"end":688.387,"text":"我們看看能夠供應到什麼樣的數字我們盡力 我們盡力 好不好好 另外一個部分因為我們現在處理115年的預算坦白說這是去年的應該要處理的狀態所以我們事實上在處理所有的預算過程當中的時候我們也是相對的一個客氣所以我們在"},{"start":689.537,"end":713.588,"text":"三動的部分的時候其實我們也盡可能的克制可是我要特別講一個狀態針對台電的部分我們台電這邊的時候我們沒有三沒有動我們只提主決議主決議之後的時候台電這邊提出來要我們修改主決議的部分的時候完全沒有任何的一個內容的一個說明就直接希望我們能夠改成"},{"start":714.548,"end":727.739,"text":"出面報告然後就改成這樣的一個內容我覺得非常的沒有不誠懇那我在想說因為現在台電還在做後續的一個重新修的一部分那我們也希望部長針對於整個相關"},{"start":730.761,"end":748.659,"text":"單位的一個我們在監督的時候所提的一個案件的時候要有更大的一個誠懇來作為一個經濟部的狀態坦白說第一次我們提出的狀態你們的回應我們也不是很滿意可是經濟部後來部本部這邊的時候後來再重新修過來的狀態我們就接受了"},{"start":750.12,"end":753.001,"text":"像台堂的部分我們都可以感覺到他們很具體在回應我們委員的預算提案當中的一個說明"},{"start":765.169,"end":781.537,"text":"我們現在只是要知道到底是台電的情況是怎麼樣子竟然都這麼樣子的困難台電的財務結構燃料成本庫存停電事故電網韌性光電風電儲能離岸風電這麼多的議題每一個都是大項目說實話"},{"start":783.997,"end":802.349,"text":"我們委員會裡面如果要把這些部分都用每個議題都要用專案報告一點也不為過所以我們這邊只是希望說你們能夠把這事情交代清楚竟然就這麼困難好不好部長請特別盯一下好的好不好好謝謝好謝謝鄭正前委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:20.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:21:22.247000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請經濟部龔部長。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:22.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:21:22.527000+08:00","text":"請經濟部龔部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:30.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:21:31.063000+08:00","text":"鄭委員早安。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:31.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:21:31.824000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:32.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:21:39.709000+08:00","text":"今天我們處理經濟部主管非營業基金的部分，是針對115年度的預算。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:39.709000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:21:41.009000+08:00","text":"對，就是今年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:41.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:21:48.954000+08:00","text":"應該在去年處理的事情，我們拖到今年才處理，所以坦白說其實我們在看待的時候，是以相對寬容的方式在看待這個事情。謝謝。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:49.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:21:57.740000+08:00","text":"可是我這邊要特別講一下，因為經濟特別收入基金裡面有5個分基金嘛。是。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:21:58.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:22:58.373000+08:00","text":"其中有一個推廣貿易基金的部分，115年度編列的預算比114年度少了1.9億元，我去看它裡面詳細的內容就發現了一件事情，從民國111年到114年的預算項目中，推廣貿易基金的貿易推廣工作計畫裡面都有一個很重要的，就是要持續推動加入跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定（CPTPP），而且在實施內容當中通常是最優先的項目，因為它放在第一點，顯然它是最重要的，可是我們看到115年的預算當中，CPTPP完全被踢出這個預算的說明內容之外，是表示我們已經放棄CPTPP的推動工作了嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:22:58.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:22:58.853000+08:00","text":"可不可以請部長做個詳細的回答？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:22:58.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:01.279000+08:00","text":"報告委員，加入CPTPP的相關預算是放在OTN那邊，沒有放在推貿基金這邊，但還是有做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:01.279000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:03.705000+08:00","text":"OK，還是有做？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:03.705000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:06.131000+08:00","text":"對，還是持續在進行，主要是OTN在主政。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:06.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:07.192000+08:00","text":"可是經貿談判辦公室（OTN）大部分的預算還是從經濟部來的喔！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:25.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:26.663000+08:00","text":"編在我們這邊沒有錯。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:26.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:29.706000+08:00","text":"對，編在你們這邊，編在公務預算裡面嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:29.706000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:30.706000+08:00","text":"對，沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:29.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:30.467000+08:00","text":"不在基金預算？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:31.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:41.479000+08:00","text":"問題是你們直接把它從這個項目當中拿掉，是不是表示你們對這個部分打算不再那麼積極去推？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:41.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:45.260000+08:00","text":"不會啦，因為OTN……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:45.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:53.131000+08:00","text":"因為以前經貿談判辦公室的預算科目也是這樣的編列方式，為什麼115年度跟114年度有這樣的差別？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:53.131000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:23:55.574000+08:00","text":"我請署長說明一下。好。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"劉署長威亷","start":"2026-06-17T09:23:55.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:24:02.163000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實在推動CPTPP時，就經濟部來講，我們會透過雙邊的場域，比如跟個別國家在雙邊諮商的時候把它提出來，但是跟這些雙邊國家諮商的時候，這些預算show出來其實不會是CPTPP，會是跟我們雙邊經濟合作裡面的……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:24:02.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:24:25.591000+08:00","text":"這都可以理解，這個東西跟外交部可能也有一些關係，可是我要講的是，在114年以前沒有這樣的問題嗎？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:24:25.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:24:30.457000+08:00","text":"為什麼115年這個部分工作內容項目的說明會特別把它剔除？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:24:32.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:24:35.663000+08:00","text":"為什麼115年跟111年到114年都不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉署長威亷","start":"2026-06-17T09:24:40.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:24:42.305000+08:00","text":"應該是沒有什麼不一樣，因為我們……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:24:43.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:25:10.803000+08:00","text":"你看我的簡報檔就可以很清楚看到啦，因為你們在111年到114年的預算當中都有特別提到要持續推動CPTPP，115年的說明裡面就沒有了，你們經貿談判辦公室在處理這個問題的時候，從111年到現在115年都一樣，為什麼在這個非營業基金會被踢出來？","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"劉署長威亷","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:10.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:25:16.987000+08:00","text":"報告委員，雖然這個上面沒有呈現，但是我們事實上在工作上都有把CPTPP納入……","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:18.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:25:20.569000+08:00","text":"這個說法很難被接受，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:20.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:25:58.822000+08:00","text":"因為之前你們經貿談判辦公室的前副總談判代表顏慧欣特別提到，政府在爭取加入CPTPP的時候消極敷衍，現在經濟部在負責這樣的推廣基金時，又完全刪除這樣的工作說明，所以我覺得當時副總談判代表講的是不是就是一個很實際的狀態，從原本是他個人覺得經濟部消極敷衍，到從這個預算當中看起來就變成實錘了嘛。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"劉署長威亷","start":"2026-06-17T09:25:59.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:00.482000+08:00","text":"報告委員，沒有這樣的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉署長威亷","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:00.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:12.127000+08:00","text":"事實上，我們這兩天跟一些貿易夥伴國家在進行雙邊的對話，都有把CPTPP放進來，只是我們這邊不方便跟委員報告是哪些……","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:12.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:15.408000+08:00","text":"現在不方便，114年以前就方便嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:15.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:19.369000+08:00","text":"差別在哪裡，你告訴我，現在進入什麼深水區嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:19.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:26.173000+08:00","text":"深水區這部分該做的說明還是得做說明，針對這樣的狀態，我覺得很難被理解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:26.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:38.500000+08:00","text":"我想我們再來補充，因為實際有做，只是沒有寫在上面而已，我們就把它補強進來，我們在雙邊對話的時候，一定都會講到這個部分，如果是屬於CPTPP的會員國的話。OK。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:39.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:50.047000+08:00","text":"3月份時卓院長有特別提到要針對CPTPP這部分強化工作小組、增加人手，請問現在有沒有在做？現在……","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:51.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:53.948000+08:00","text":"強化工作小組、增加人手。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:55.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:26:59.571000+08:00","text":"據我們了解，行政院已經有在做這樣的思考，他會跟我們討論，我們也會討論。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:26:59.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:10.679000+08:00","text":"因為以前OTN全部都是其他單位派駐過去的，但是我在當秘書長的時候，行政院……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:10.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:13.520000+08:00","text":"可是大部分的預算都是經濟部編列的！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:14.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:20.882000+08:00","text":"對，但是已經有給6個名額，是行政院下面的常駐人員，所以不會再調動。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:21.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:26.923000+08:00","text":"至於是不是再額外增加，行政院現在也持續在討論當中，我們會配合。OK。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:29.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:27:39.746000+08:00","text":"針對CPTPP，因為我在前幾次的質詢曾經特別問過複邊貿易協定，希望經濟部能夠好好去做。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:27:40.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:11.661000+08:00","text":"因為CPTPP其實也是在WTO架構當中的複邊貿易談判協定，這個部分對臺灣整體的經貿發展是有幫助的，所以我們希望經濟部真的要用力去做，而不是真的像前經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表顏慧欣講的狀態，即政府對這個部分根本是敷衍消極的態度，我們不希望看到這樣的情況，好不好？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:12.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:13.402000+08:00","text":"不會，我們會盡力來做。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:13.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:28:35.395000+08:00","text":"接下來我要特別提到，因為上次我有問到我們的核能政策轉彎了，核能政策轉彎之後，我有提出希望經濟部能夠讓我們知道能源政策轉彎的成本是多少，當時說兩個月內給我一份報告，雖然經濟部的報告給了，但裡面一個數字都沒有！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:28:46.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:08.785000+08:00","text":"我們的政策可以轉彎，沒有問題，我們也希望臺灣的能源政策要轉彎，可是政策轉彎之前需要很多評估，成本效益分析很重要，我們只是要知道這個政策轉彎花了多少錢，結果經濟部提出的報告裡面一個數字都沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:09.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:10.727000+08:00","text":"我請同仁說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡司長文中","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:13.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:26.754000+08:00","text":"因為現在核三跟核二都還要進行再運轉跟自主安全檢查，將來所有的設備要更換到多少，我們現在沒有辦法知道，所以要等到檢查完了以後，確定這樣的設備是可以運轉沒有……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:26.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:39.219000+08:00","text":"這個部分都沒有問題，可是我想一個政策的形成一定會做過評估，以經濟部來講，數字量化的評估一定是重要的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:39.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:29:54.244000+08:00","text":"你兩個月內給我的報告當中，一個數字都沒有，坦白說，在野的國民黨黨團提出一個數字9,000億，也有人提出上兆，因為大家評估的成本不一樣。","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:29:54.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:21.577000+08:00","text":"說實話，以民間來說，評估的時候可能會更寬鬆一點去看，所以可能有人把機會成本算進來、把整個綠電躉購價格的價差都算進來等等，都不一樣，可是經濟部總得有自己的主張跟看法，你們總得提出一個數字，兩個月之後什麼數字都沒有，就寫了一堆文章出來，我們從相關資料隨便就可以得到這樣的文章。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:25.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:33.942000+08:00","text":"可是我們要特別監督這樣的政策轉彎到底成本是多少，老百姓總得知道吧？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:34.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:42.266000+08:00","text":"政策可以轉彎，可是我們也要知道錢花在哪裡，經濟部可不可以在一個月內，盡可能把這個部分落實？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:43.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:30:54.423000+08:00","text":"民間、在野黨可以要求估算的時候很寬鬆，而你們可以估算的很保守，或者比方你們把核四的認列損失提出來，這也是一個數字，結果什麼都沒有！","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:30:59.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:04.503000+08:00","text":"剛剛同仁提到了，現在自主安全檢查的部分還要跟……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:04.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:07.105000+08:00","text":"這只是成本其中的一部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:07.105000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:08.105000+08:00","text":"因為它是重要的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:07.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:09.648000+08:00","text":"這只是其中的一部分而已！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:09.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:10.469000+08:00","text":"是，我了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:11.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:21.218000+08:00","text":"我們現在跟原廠再溝通看看，是不是至少可以給大致的區間、空間？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:22.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:24.580000+08:00","text":"這樣我們比較好有一個基礎來算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:24.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:29.583000+08:00","text":"要不然的話，政府部門提出來的數據假如有爭議，我想也不好……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:30.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:37.947000+08:00","text":"在政策轉彎當中，比方台電之前的虧損是怎麼樣的情況……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:37.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:40.048000+08:00","text":"台電虧損主要還是因為照顧民生。理解。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:41.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:31:59.697000+08:00","text":"因為是站在整個政策的調整當中，所以我剛剛提到在野黨或者民間學者在估算的時候，可以很廣義地來估算；行政部門可以很狹義地來估算，可是我們想要知道具體的狀態到底是怎麼樣。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:31:59.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:04.299000+08:00","text":"事實上，照顧民生跟能源政策一直都沒有改變。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:04.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:11.787000+08:00","text":"我理解，所以我才說以經濟部的角度，你們覺得這個政策的改變成本是多少，總要有一個數字。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:12.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:13.890000+08:00","text":"經濟部不講數字，講什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:14.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:16.673000+08:00","text":"一個月內給我們很清楚的答案，好不好？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:18.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:24.976000+08:00","text":"我們看看能夠供應到什麼樣的數字，我們盡力，好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:25.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:32:44.739000+08:00","text":"另外一個部分，因為我們現在在處理115年的預算，坦白說，這是去年應該要處理的，所以事實上在處理所有預算的過程當中，我們也是相對的客氣，所以在刪凍的時候，其實也儘可能的克制。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:32:45.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:11.193000+08:00","text":"可是我要特別講一個狀態，針對台電的部分，我們沒有刪、沒有凍，只提主決議，而台電提出要我們修改主決議的時候，完全沒有說明任何內容，就直接希望能夠改成書面報告這樣的內容，讓我覺得非常不誠懇。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:11.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:29.189000+08:00","text":"因為現在台電還在做後續的重修，我們也希望部長針對我們監督相關單位所提的案件要有更大的誠懇來做。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:30.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:39.639000+08:00","text":"坦白說，我們第一次提出後，對於你們的回應，不是很滿意，可是後來經濟部本部重新修過送來，我們就接受了。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:41.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:43.821000+08:00","text":"像台糖、中油，我們都可以感覺到技術司很具體在回應、說明委員的預算提案……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:43.821000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:33:56.169000+08:00","text":"我知道委員關切這樣的議題……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:33:56.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:02.692000+08:00","text":"我們現在只是要知道到底台電的情況是怎麼樣，竟然這樣困難。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:02.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:21.709000+08:00","text":"台電的財務結構、燃料成本、庫存、停電事故、電網韌性、光電、風電、儲能、離岸風電，這麼多的議題，每一個都是大項目，說實話，本委員會如果要把每個議題都要用專案報告一點也不為過。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:21.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:27.078000+08:00","text":"我們只是希望你們能夠把這些事情交代清楚，竟然就這麼困難。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:27.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:32.187000+08:00","text":"請部長特別盯一下，好不好？好。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:33.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:33.349000+08:00","text":"謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:34:33.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:34:36.134714+08:00","text":"請陳亭妃委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}