{"error":false,"id":["170128"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170128,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170128","日期":"2026-06-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-25T09:18:23+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-25T09:30:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5296dbcedce5686ed2bb8f63a5004a2c09d298f9b89000c613b3f5dc7860e3d1824389cbc841edea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:18:23 - 09:30:06","會議時間":"2026-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、考試院秘書長、監察院秘書長、法務部部長、公平交易委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、中央選舉委員會針對「我國憲政機關、獨立機關首長代理制度之現況與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":3.9290937500000003,"end":14.30721875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.066593750000003,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":28.313468750000002,"end":34.70909375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":35.16471875,"end":56.32596875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":56.359718750000006,"end":57.119093750000005,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":57.69284375,"end":61.72596875000001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":61.962218750000005,"end":61.979093750000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":61.979093750000004,"end":62.04659375000001,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":62.04659375000001,"end":62.080343750000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":62.080343750000004,"end":62.13096875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":62.13096875,"end":62.31659375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":62.31659375,"end":62.400968750000004,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":62.62034375,"end":65.13471875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":65.35409375,"end":68.84721875000001,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":68.15534375,"end":71.17596875000001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":71.31096875,"end":72.71159375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":73.23471875,"end":83.20784375000001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":83.57909375,"end":84.62534375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":85.08096875000001,"end":87.30846875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":87.59534375000001,"end":95.56034375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":96.01596875,"end":98.09159375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.10034375000001,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":98.66534375,"end":110.00534375000001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":110.24159375,"end":112.09784375000001,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":110.59596875000001,"end":111.27096875000001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":111.64221875000001,"end":120.56909375000001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":120.88971875000001,"end":125.61471875000001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":125.68221875,"end":129.69846875000002,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.18846875000001,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":129.98534375,"end":132.11159375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":138.87846875,"end":153.64409375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":153.74534375000002,"end":167.93721875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":168.20721875,"end":220.58721875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":221.00909375,"end":234.05346875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":235.40346875,"end":236.71971875000003,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":236.55096875,"end":238.06971875000002,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":238.62659375,"end":240.31409375,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":240.41534375,"end":268.79909375,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":249.71346875,"end":250.03409375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":252.63284375,"end":254.62409375000001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.62409375000001,"end":254.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":255.40034375000002,"end":256.98659375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.50971875,"end":257.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":257.57721875000004,"end":258.25221875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.25221875,"end":258.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.80909375,"end":258.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":258.89346875,"end":258.91034375000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.91034375000004,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":259.04534375000003,"end":259.06221875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":260.19284375,"end":262.45409375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.45409375,"end":262.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":263.29784375,"end":264.15846875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.15846875,"end":264.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":265.03596875,"end":265.17096875000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":266.58846875,"end":268.19159375000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":269.03534375000004,"end":271.65096875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":269.13659375000003,"end":271.41471875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":272.02221875000004,"end":273.15284375000005,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":272.22471875,"end":273.65909375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":273.67596875000004,"end":273.69284375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":273.70971875000004,"end":273.72659375,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":273.76034375,"end":275.88659375000003,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":275.32971875000004,"end":292.25534375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":282.13034375,"end":286.02846875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":290.56784375,"end":306.78471875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":293.23409375,"end":295.78221875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":296.30534375,"end":296.35596875000005,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":298.54971875,"end":299.34284375000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":301.35096875,"end":302.58284375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":302.71784375000004,"end":304.67534375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":305.77221875000004,"end":314.49659375000005,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":315.40784375000004,"end":316.25159375000004,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":316.25159375000004,"end":316.97721875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":316.97721875,"end":325.04346875000005,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":322.24221875,"end":324.75659375000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":325.09409375,"end":337.93596875000003,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":338.79659375,"end":341.14221875000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":341.26034375,"end":343.82534375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":342.57659375000003,"end":352.70159375000003,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":350.17034375000003,"end":356.44784375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":355.87409375000004,"end":373.67721875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":359.41784375000003,"end":359.62034375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":361.07159375000003,"end":362.97846875000005,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.97846875000005,"end":362.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":369.12096875000003,"end":369.54284375000003,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":372.14159375,"end":376.57971875000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":374.63909375000003,"end":375.19596875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":376.00596875,"end":386.11409375000005,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":380.81534375,"end":381.62534375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":383.63346875,"end":384.05534375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":384.69659375000003,"end":453.68159375000005,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":454.25534375,"end":483.22971875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.23284375000003,"end":463.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.92471875,"end":464.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":464.02596875,"end":466.01721875000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":472.68284375,"end":473.96534375000005,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.96534375000005,"end":474.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":474.03284375000004,"end":474.42096875000004,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":475.29846875000004,"end":476.73284375000003,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":480.78284375000004,"end":550.0547187500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":551.11784375,"end":573.4265937499999,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.09409375,"end":570.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.21596875,"end":571.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.78971875,"end":573.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":573.47721875,"end":600.07221875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.59534375,"end":573.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.8728437500001,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":580.0247187500001,"end":582.7922187500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":593.1028437500001,"end":594.3515937500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.3515937500001,"end":594.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":596.98409375,"end":604.3247187500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":601.43909375,"end":605.13471875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":605.3034687500001,"end":616.8459687500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":613.94346875,"end":618.9890937499999,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":617.03159375,"end":619.46159375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":619.19159375,"end":624.0009687500001,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":621.53721875,"end":623.8490937500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":624.10221875,"end":624.54096875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":624.54096875,"end":624.5747187500001,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":624.5747187500001,"end":625.08096875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":624.5915937500001,"end":627.05534375,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":625.65471875,"end":633.5859687500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":628.03409375,"end":630.00846875,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":632.21909375,"end":637.6697187500001,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":635.9653437500001,"end":655.5403437500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":653.8359687500001,"end":664.0959687500001,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":657.4640937500001,"end":658.3415937500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":661.8684687500001,"end":662.1384687500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":662.6953437500001,"end":666.69471875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":664.9228437500001,"end":672.01034375,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":668.70284375,"end":670.20471875,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":670.79534375,"end":671.1497187500001,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":671.48721875,"end":684.26159375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":672.6515937500001,"end":673.9678437500002,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":682.6415937500001,"end":693.8803437500001,"speaker_score":0.954},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":686.6240937500002,"end":688.51409375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":692.6653437500001,"end":700.02284375,"speaker_score":0.983},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":700.73159375,"end":703.3303437500001,"speaker_score":0.983}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.334,"end":19.797,"text":"謝謝主席,有請司法院秘書長、考試院秘書長、監察院秘書長、公平會毛主秘、NCC溫主秘跟中選會謝主秘好,有請這些部會首長們可以到前方"},{"start":28.342,"end":57.026,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先請教這個司法院高祖密請問司法院院長出缺代理人選是否為大法官是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人請你回答是或不是 是的好 謝謝 謝謝高秘書長請問考試院劉秘書長請問考試院院長出缺代理人選是否需為考試委員是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人目前沒有"},{"start":57.745,"end":72.502,"text":"目前沒有沒有法律層級的制度來規範代理人對但是是需要有考試委員來出任目前就是因為組織法裡面好那考試院的組織法是還有缺口的好我了解好"},{"start":73.303,"end":97.945,"text":"那請教監察院黃秘書長請問監察院長出缺 代理人是否需要為監察委員是否有法律層級的制度規範代理人好 謝謝請問公平會的毛主秘這個公平會主委出缺的時候 代理人是否需要為公平會委員是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人好 謝謝毛主秘"},{"start":99.055,"end":120.062,"text":"請問NCC的主委 溫主委主委出缺的時候 代理人是否需要NCC委員是否需要有法律層級的制度來規範代理人是的 現行就有好 謝謝溫主秘請教中選會的謝主秘請問中選會主委出缺的時候 代理人是否需要"},{"start":121.363,"end":130.776,"text":"為中選會委員是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人是好 謝謝謝謝主秘好 各位請回好 現在麻煩請法務部部長"},{"start":139.065,"end":167.511,"text":"陳部長你因為我時間這麼早我請問你一邊聽法務部請教部長當檢查總長出缺的時候為什麼沒有法律層級的制度規範代理人如何選出來今天剛剛法務部的報告承認檢查總長的代理人選一直以來都是用慣例慣例處理連最基本的辦法都沒有那您在這個報告中今天交出來的報告中寫的是檢查總長是特任官"},{"start":168.671,"end":172.474,"text":"也不是理由 為什麼呢 我舉個例子公平會主委也是特任官但是在公平會組織法第五條就有寫了當主委出缺的時候是由副主委代理那其他的組織法 剛剛這個考試院考試院可能也有一個缺口"},{"start":184.984,"end":195.612,"text":"那其他的機關的組織法也有類似的規定所以就只有這個最重要的是檢查總長的代理沒有法律層級的規範連最基本的辦法都沒有所以今天法務部的報告我覺得在理由上說不過去我要強調的是台灣是個法治國家結果最懂法律的最該懂法治原國的法務部缺乏法治"},{"start":210.964,"end":231.571,"text":"習慣把這個慣例作為理所當然我認為這是非常危險的認知所以部長我想請教你立法院已經否決的檢查總長被提名人徐錫翔的人事案但賴總統卻指定他作為指定一個被國會否決的人來代理請問部長你認為這樣適合嗎"},{"start":236.627,"end":254.931,"text":"請你回答我是不適合這個我們想是代理人因為我們那個總統提名的檢查總長的人選當然未獲大院的一個通過但是我們這個提名的這個檢查總長的人選就是一個非常適合的在他的學經歷他這整個一個非常優秀其實他代理期間的時候也提出非常上述"},{"start":262.952,"end":268.074,"text":"那非常上述研究那些的 比如說那個整個一個是不是有社會就是緩社會性人格的一個授信人 但是我想這樣是非常適合的視改會 因為別人也有提出不同意見 認為這個是變相加工國會的人事同意權把代理制度作為政治對抗工具 損害檢查公信"},{"start":286.599,"end":294.702,"text":"欠缺民主正當性 創下憲政惡例因為指派代理是一個屬於事務性 暫時性的一個組織那這個代理人選在整個代理期間也行使的一個檢查總統的職權也非常的一個特殊這位整個媒體也做大幅的一個報導總統會再提名新的人選送來立院嗎還是就讓這個徐行祥無限期的代理下去"},{"start":316.485,"end":337.594,"text":"據您了解呢我想這部分那個一個要不要提名我想我們尊重那個反組織法裡面相關的一個規定謝謝 柏定本黨團已經提案修法了代理檢察總長不能超過三個月而且會被國會否決的人也不能夠來做代理人那看來您是您是支持這個修法嗎"},{"start":338.875,"end":356.484,"text":"你剛剛最後的報告是有點開放那我想你支持這個修法嗎我的問題我很清楚啦一切就按照法律的規定嘛那一個指定代理即是一個過渡的一個行政的一個行政處置嘛所以立法院如果提出相關修法基本上你也會再說個兩句那個修法這個是整個檢查總長的一個任命是規定在法院組織法第66條的規定"},{"start":364.548,"end":369.932,"text":"那這部分是我們也尊重的一個法案主管機關的一個意見那我想我們本部會有一些的一個建立好啦 柏廷你給我一點時間啦柏廷接下來我們來談一下詐騙啦而且這個總長我認為這個也不能夠像代理也不能夠一直的更替"},{"start":381.781,"end":390.826,"text":"一個更替我想這個會妨礙整個一個業務的一個政策部長您平常的解釋都非常的論述非常多我們大概都知道我們來談一下詐騙打詐跟房企前我們絕對支持但是法務部前幾年新增的告誡處分本來是要攔截詐騙金流那如果配套沒做好根本就是會變成濫殺無辜這個有個告誡戶的制度他本來是要處罰那些亂給別人帳戶的人一旦被警察告誡那銀行帳戶至少要凍結五年"},{"start":411.417,"end":419.904,"text":"但現在出現一大堆無辜的受害者特別是年輕人很多人只是在網路上賣東西當買家匯錢進來那事後才發現那筆錢是詐騙來的那這些買家根本沒有把帳密帳號密碼給這個詐騙集團那甚至有人莫名其妙被匯入一塊錢他直接變成那個詐欺的共犯變成告借戶那部長我要講說這些商家其實他是單純的做生意他因為收到有問題的款項"},{"start":438.539,"end":442.144,"text":"就被直接當作這個網路人頭結果凍結帳戶五年那你認為這樣符合比例原則嗎對很多無辜民眾來說網銀不能用帳戶被鎖死簡直是社會性死亡人你認為這樣符合比例原則嗎"},{"start":454.878,"end":468.328,"text":"這個告借戶本來就是要解決人頭賬戶的一個問題那也不要在一開始就把那個人頭戶當作刑事犯罪來偵查所以說現在出現的一些 告借戶是一種警方發給的一個行政處分"},{"start":469.449,"end":474.33,"text":"那是不是像委員講的這個情形那我們當然非常重視那這部分我們在今年的7月1日要開會來研商如何去解決適合我委員關係的這樣的一個問題那我們還是看一下這個統計數字可是警政署的資料自從這個洗錢防濟法實施以來到今年5月為止"},{"start":491.454,"end":496.078,"text":"檢察機關開立的告誡處分有13萬件那民眾提訴願的有3981件那最後撤銷成功大概是1000出頭件撤銷率是撤銷不到1%這個所謂的翻案率是非常的低啦那部長其實最重要的問題是目前的訴願程序是原水救不了進火你受到處分要30天內提訴願"},{"start":512.813,"end":518.195,"text":"那這個程序動輒要三到五個月如果再打行政訴訟那簡直是曠日廢時而且犯案率非常低那請部長想一想那當地三方受詐騙的受害者他可能要等半年多才會拿到這個不起訴處分的確定還有這個甚至是無罪的這個確定但他的告誡處分就是帳戶凍結"},{"start":532.739,"end":549.71,"text":"他不會自動撤銷喔那很多委員已經注意到這個法規的漏洞已經有都提案了所以我認為是要建立制度如果確定不起訴或是經法院判決無罪那受告誡處分者是不是可以拿相關的證明文件申請撤銷告誡部長你支持這樣的做法嗎"},{"start":551.438,"end":568.787,"text":"跟委員報告那個告誡會的確有實質上的一個需要那剛才委員提供的數據是13萬多萬件嘛那其實這個我們告誡的時候這些被人家當作洗錢當作詐團使用的這些的一個工具這個是對被害人詐欺被害人委員我現在已經很關心那犯罪被害人的這種的一個詐欺犯罪被害人的一個保護"},{"start":573.57,"end":582.613,"text":"那是齁 我跟委員報告齁 那個是不是可以拿不起訴處分書來做一個解除告解的一個依據齁 我想這個應該是要尋 因為它是一個行政處分齁 刑事處分 這個行為是不是合法妥適齁 這個可以依照書院或行政訴訟來解決那另外那個不起訴處分 覺得不起訴處分是沒有犯罪證據 不用擺他的行為是妥適的嘛"},{"start":597.219,"end":604,"text":"這只是不能打倒一個犯罪的一個門檻而已嘛我想這個是大家都很知道的一般的法律的一個知識啦法治國家的原則是正當法律程序跟比例原則啦防治洗錢跟打造我們是百分百支持的但是也不能為了抓壞人錯殺一百人啊這個有允許救濟的機會啊有宿願啊 宿願行政署長的機會啊"},{"start":624.684,"end":629.185,"text":"你剛剛說7月你會開始研議一些這是一個法治國基本的原理你研議的結果讓我去瞭解7月1日的話會在座開會研商就來更精進去讓委員講就是說不要傷及無辜第二不要傷及無辜因為這些受傷的都是年輕人他們在網路上賣東西那他也沒辦法賬密給別人"},{"start":645.25,"end":658.266,"text":"但是他會進來前是可能出現的問題所以現在他就很主動的被變成說是一個告戒戶但是他如果被判決無罪他又不能拿這個直接去撤銷這告戒不會判決無罪齁委員這個是兩個話沒有告戒就不會到刑案去去了"},{"start":661.69,"end":667.355,"text":"告誡是行政罪犯的我是指最後經過超幾個月以後的這個不會 最基本的法律觀念喔我不是全部開放喔我不是開放我就假設後來證實他不起訴等等等等這個時候我們是不是要主動不要讓他再去申請然後要經過也許半年的時間好嗎 部長就是說您了解我的重點"},{"start":683.13,"end":698.224,"text":"大家都要打仗嘛7月1日的那個研商會議我想會主事解這個問題就麻煩董事長這個不要去傷及無辜當然會不會有那個我們會再做一個因為很多人都發現這裡出現了一些漏洞那我們就是再來重新檢討好嗎謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員那麼因為我們"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:18:27.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:18:37.108000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請司法院秘書長、考試院秘書長、監察院秘書長、公平會毛主秘、NCC溫主秘和中選會謝主秘。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:18:38.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:18:42.316000+08:00","text":"有請這些部會首長們到備詢台。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:18:53.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:00.069000+08:00","text":"首先請教司法院高秘書長，請問司法院院長出缺時，代理人選是否須為大法官？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:00.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:03.952000+08:00","text":"是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:04.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:05.594000+08:00","text":"請你回答是或不是。是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:06.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:08.957000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:08.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:15.982000+08:00","text":"請問考試院劉秘書長，考試院院長出缺時，代理人選是否須為考試委員？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:15.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:19.165000+08:00","text":"是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:19.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:20.006000+08:00","text":"目前沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:20.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:25.711000+08:00","text":"目前沒有法律層級的制度來規範代理人？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:25.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:27.853000+08:00","text":"但是不是需要由考試委員來出任？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:29.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:30.637000+08:00","text":"目前就是因為組織法裡面並沒有做……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:31.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:33.820000+08:00","text":"好，考試院的組織法是還有缺口的？對。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:34.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:35.142000+08:00","text":"好，我了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:36.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:42.669000+08:00","text":"請教監察院黃秘書長，請問監察院長出缺時，代理人是否需要為監察委員？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:42.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:45.892000+08:00","text":"是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人？是的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:46.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:48.574000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:48.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:55.400000+08:00","text":"請問公平會毛主秘，公平會主委出缺的時候，代理人是否需要為公平會委員？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:55.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:19:58.282000+08:00","text":"是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人？有。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:19:59.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:00.925000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝毛主秘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:02.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:09.437000+08:00","text":"請問NCC溫主委，主委出缺的時候，代理人是否需要為NCC委員？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:09.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:12.678000+08:00","text":"是否需要有法律層級的制度來規範代理人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:13.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:14.379000+08:00","text":"是的，現行就有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:14.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:16.480000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝溫主秘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:17.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:25.244000+08:00","text":"請問中選會謝主秘，中選會主委出缺的時候，代理人是否需要為中選會委員？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:25.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:28.809000+08:00","text":"是否有法律層級的制度來規範代理人？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:29.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:31.453000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝謝主秘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:31.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:33.776000+08:00","text":"各位請回，現在麻煩請法務部部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:42.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:46.446000+08:00","text":"鄭部長，因為我的時間一直在算，你就一邊走一邊聽。","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:47.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:20:57.168000+08:00","text":"請教部長，當檢察總長出缺的時候，為什麼沒有法律層級的制度來規範代理人如何選出來？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:20:57.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:21:04.730000+08:00","text":"剛剛法務部的報告承認檢察總長的代理人選一直以來都是用慣例處理，連最基本的辦法都沒有。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:21:05.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:21:12.752000+08:00","text":"你在今天交出來的報告中寫的是，檢察總長是特任官，但這也不是理由，為什麼呢？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:21:12.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:21:14.794000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，公平會主委也是特任官，但是在公平會組織法第五條就有規定，當主委出缺的時候，是由副主委代理。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:21:14.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:21:37.371000+08:00","text":"其他的組織法，像考試院可能也有一個缺口，但其他機關的組織法也有類似的規定，就只有這個最重要的檢察總長的代理沒有法律層級的規範，連最基本的辦法都沒有，所以今天法務部的報告，我覺得在理由上說不過去。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:21:37.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:21:59.406000+08:00","text":"我要強調的是，臺灣是個法治國家，結果最懂法律、最該懂法治國原則的法務部卻缺乏法制，習慣把慣例作為理所當然，我認為這是非常危險的認知。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:21:59.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:14.571000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教部長，立法院已經否決了檢察總長被提名人徐錫祥的人事案，但賴總統卻指定他、指定一個被國會否決的人來代理，請問部長，你認為這樣適合嗎？這個……","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:19.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:20.787000+08:00","text":"請你回答我適不適合。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:22.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:35.670000+08:00","text":"我們講的是代理人，總統提名的檢察總長人選雖然未獲大院的通過，但是我們提名的檢察總長人選……","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:35.670000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:36.670000+08:00","text":"所以你認為是適合的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:35.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:36.270000+08:00","text":"就是一個非常適合的，他的學經歷……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:36.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:37.270000+08:00","text":"好，我聽到了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:36.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:37.671000+08:00","text":"他是一個非常優秀的人選，其實他在代理期間也提出非常上訴……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:37.671000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:46.532000+08:00","text":"我聽到你講的適合了，我知道你講的理由了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:46.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:48.213000+08:00","text":"也就那些譬如說是不是有反社會性人格的受刑人……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:48.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:49.213000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:49.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:50.213000+08:00","text":"部長，請給我時間，我聽到你的答案了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:48.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:48.973000+08:00","text":"我想這是非常適合的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:49.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:50.833000+08:00","text":"部長，像司改會，因為別人也有提出不同意見，認為這個是變相架空國會的人事同意權，把代理制度作為政治對抗工具……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:50.833000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:22:51.833000+08:00","text":"這個絕對沒有架空大院的人事權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:22:50.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:10.980000+08:00","text":"損害檢察公信，欠缺民主正當性，創下憲政惡例。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:10.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:11.980000+08:00","text":"當然，我聽你剛剛講，你認為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:11.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:12.360000+08:00","text":"因為指派代理是屬於事務性、暫時性的行政處置……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:12.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:13.360000+08:00","text":"對於這樣的批評，你一定認為沒道理。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:13.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:16.301000+08:00","text":"這個代理人選在整個代理期間也行使了檢察總長的職權，也非常的合適，社會……包括媒體也做了大幅的報導。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:16.301000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:17.301000+08:00","text":"部長，請你給我時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:16.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:16.782000+08:00","text":"請教部長，總統會再提名新的人選送來立院嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:16.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:17.682000+08:00","text":"還是就讓徐錫祥無限期代理下去？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:39.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:39.985000+08:00","text":"據您了解呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:43.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:47.728000+08:00","text":"關於要不要提名，我們尊重法院組織法裡面相關的規定。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:47.728000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:48.728000+08:00","text":"尊重總統？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:48.728000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:49.728000+08:00","text":"好，我知道你的答案了，謝謝。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:49.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:23:57.673000+08:00","text":"部長，本黨團已經提案修法了，代理檢察總長不能超過三個月，而且被國會否決的人也不能夠來做代理人。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:23:59.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:00.594000+08:00","text":"你支持這個修法嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:01.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:05.857000+08:00","text":"你剛剛最後的報告是有點開放，我想問，你支持這個修法嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:05.857000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:06.857000+08:00","text":"我們已經提出了。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:06.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:14.722000+08:00","text":"關於這個問題，我說得很清楚，一切就按照法律的規定，指定代理是一個過渡的行政處置……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:14.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:17.783000+08:00","text":"好，是過渡的行政處置，所以立法院如果提出相關修法，基本上你也會……","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:18.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:31.971000+08:00","text":"那個修法，整個檢察總長的任命是規定在法院組織法第六十六條，這部分我們也尊重法案主管機關的意見，不過本部會有一些建議。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:32.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:32.232000+08:00","text":"好啦，部長，你給我一點時間啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:32.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:32.392000+08:00","text":"部長，接下來我們來談一下詐騙……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:32.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:45.802000+08:00","text":"而且我認為總長的代理也不能夠一直更替，這樣會妨害業務正常推動。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:46.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:48.483000+08:00","text":"部長，您平常的解釋論述都非常多，我們大概都知道。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:48.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:48.783000+08:00","text":"我們來談一下詐騙。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:48.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:24:52.185000+08:00","text":"打詐與防洗錢，我們絕對支持，但是法務部前幾年新增的告誡處分，本來是要攔截詐騙金流，如果配套沒做好，根本會變成濫殺無辜。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:24:52.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:25:21.883000+08:00","text":"這個告誡戶制度本來是要處罰那些亂給別人帳戶的人，一旦被警察告誡，銀行帳戶至少要凍結5年，但現在出現一大堆無辜的受害者，特別是年輕人，很多人只是在網路上賣東西，當買家匯錢進來，事後才發現那筆錢是詐騙來的，這些買家根本沒有把帳號、密碼給詐騙集團，甚至有人莫名其妙被匯入1塊錢，就直接變成詐欺共犯、變成告誡戶。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:25:21.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:25:43.201000+08:00","text":"部長，我要講的是，這些商家其實只是單純做生意，因為收到有問題的款項，就被直接當作網路人頭，凍結帳戶5年，你認為這樣符合比例原則嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:25:43.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:25:45.144000+08:00","text":"對很多無辜民眾來說，網銀不能用、帳戶被鎖死，簡直是社會性死亡，你認為這樣符合比例原則嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:25:57.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:06.525000+08:00","text":"告誡戶本來就是要解決人頭帳戶的問題，也不要在一開始就把人頭戶當作刑事犯罪偵辦……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:07.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:08.626000+08:00","text":"好，很好，所以說現在出現了一些……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:08.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:14.109000+08:00","text":"告誡戶是一種警方發給的行政處分，是不是像委員講的這個情形，我們當然非常重視……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:14.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:15.109000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:15.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:16.109000+08:00","text":"部長，我們看一下統計數字……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:14.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:15.490000+08:00","text":"這部分我們在今年7月1日要開會，研商如何解決委員所關心的這樣的問題。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:15.490000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:16.490000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我很高興聽到你要研商這件事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:15.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:37.237000+08:00","text":"我們還是看一下統計數字，根據警政署的資料，自從洗錢防制法實施以來，到今年5月為止，警察機關開立的告誡處分有13萬件，民眾提訴願有3,981件，最後撤銷成功大概是一千出頭件，撤銷不到1%，所謂的翻案率是非常的低。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:37.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:26:58.914000+08:00","text":"部長，其實最重要的問題是，目前的訴願程序遠水救不了近火，收到處分要30天內提訴願，程序動輒要3到5個月，如果再打行政訴訟，簡直是曠日費時，而且翻案率非常低。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:26:58.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:27:21.202000+08:00","text":"請部長想一想，第三方詐騙的受害者可能要等半年多才會拿到不起訴處分確定，甚至是無罪確定，但他的告誡處分（帳戶凍結）並不會自動撤銷，很多委員已經注意到這個法規的漏洞，而且都有提案了。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:27:21.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:27:31.329000+08:00","text":"所以我認為要建立制度，如果確定不起訴或經法院判決無罪，受告誡處分者是不是可以拿相關證明文件申請撤銷告誡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:27:31.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:27:32.710000+08:00","text":"部長，你支持這樣的做法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:27:34.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:27:51.787000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，告誡的確有實質上的需要，剛才委員提供的數據十三萬多件，這些被人家當作洗錢、當作詐團使用的工具，這也是對詐欺被害人……委員，我相信你應該也關心詐欺犯罪被害人的保護……對。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:27:51.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:27:56.730000+08:00","text":"部長，我的重點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:27:56.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:02.972000+08:00","text":"但是我跟委員報告，是不是可以拿不起訴處分書來做解除告誡的依據……","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:02.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:03.972000+08:00","text":"還有無罪判定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:02.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:03.933000+08:00","text":"我想這個應該是要循……因為它是一個行政處分，這個行政處分是不是合法妥適，可以依照訴願或行政訴訟來解決。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:03.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:04.933000+08:00","text":"部長，我們在討論剛剛……曠日費時。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:03.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:21.939000+08:00","text":"另外，不起訴處分是沒有犯罪證據，並不代表他的行為是妥適的，只是不能達到犯罪的門檻而已。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:21.939000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:22.939000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長幫大家上法律課程，但是部長，這是我的質詢時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:21.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:22.759000+08:00","text":"我想這個是大家都知道的一般法律知識。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:22.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:25.840000+08:00","text":"部長，法治國家的原則是正當法律程序及比例原則，防制洗錢跟打詐，我們是百分百支持。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:25.840000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:26.840000+08:00","text":"這個我們一定要支持，所以這個告誡帳戶……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:25.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:26.320000+08:00","text":"但是也不能為了抓壞人而錯殺100人啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:26.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:26.980000+08:00","text":"這個允許有救濟的機會，有訴願、行政訴訟的機會……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:26.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:37.332000+08:00","text":"這個還剝奪經濟活動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:37.332000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:47.684000+08:00","text":"這個法律上有保障他的救濟……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:47.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:48.024000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說7月你會開始研議，我是不是可以……","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:48.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:48.784000+08:00","text":"這是一個法治國基本的原理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:48.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:48.985000+08:00","text":"可以知道，就是你研議的結果讓我了解。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:49.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:28:49.445000+08:00","text":"這個7月1日會再開會研商，會更精進，就像委員講的，我們會來關心這個問題。","quality":0.433},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:28:50.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:17.862000+08:00","text":"第一個，不要傷及無辜，因為現在受傷的都是年輕人，他們在網路上賣東西，他也沒把帳密給別人，但是匯進來的錢可能出現問題，所以現在他就被很主動地變成是一個告誡戶，但是他如果被判決無罪，他又不能拿這個直接去撤銷……","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:17.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:20.064000+08:00","text":"告誡不會判決無罪，委員，這個是兩個……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:20.064000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:21.064000+08:00","text":"或是不起訴……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:20.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:25.551000+08:00","text":"沒有，告誡就不會到刑案去了，告誡是行政處分的……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:25.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:26.131000+08:00","text":"我是指最後經過好幾個月以後的不起訴。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:26.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:26.832000+08:00","text":"這個不會，委員，這是最基本的法律觀念，凡是行政處分……","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:27.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:27.393000+08:00","text":"我不是全部開放。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:27.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:28.393000+08:00","text":"就不會進入到刑事偵查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:27.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:29.795000+08:00","text":"我不是開放，我是說假設後來證實他不起訴等等，這個時候我們是不是要主動，不要讓他再去申請，然後要經過也許半年的時間，好嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:29.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:46.971000+08:00","text":"部長，您了解我的重點，大家都要打詐嘛！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:47.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:50.674000+08:00","text":"我知道，我們在等7月1日的研商會議，我想會妥適解決這個問題。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:50.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:52.476000+08:00","text":"好，就麻煩部長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:52.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:29:55.739000+08:00","text":"不要去傷及無辜，當然會不會有那個……我們會再做一個檢視。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:29:55.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:30:00.283000+08:00","text":"因為很多人都發現這裡出現了一些漏洞，我們就是再來重新檢討好嗎？好。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-06-25T09:30:00.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:30:00.443000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:30:00.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:30:00.643000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:30:01.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:30:09.428714+08:00","text":"因為議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，所以我們現在先確定議事錄。","quality":0.138},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:30:09.728714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:30:16.300143+08:00","text":"請問在座兩位委員，上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:30:16.600143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:30:19.743000+08:00","text":"（無）好，沒有的話，議事錄確定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:30:20.043000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:30:23.471571+08:00","text":"接下來有請林沛祥委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}