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14:00:39","會議時間":"2026-07-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀、行政院食品安全辦公室主任許輔列席就「校園食品安全把關機制及致癌油事件因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席就「學生出缺勤管理及校園秩序維護政策亂象檢討與改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、審查教育部函為修正「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」部分條文及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」第五條、第六條之一條文案。\n四、審查\n(一)國民黨黨團擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案。 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我請教育部鄭義耀部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":16.043,"end":16.484,"text":"今天是停班停课的"},{"start":44.904,"end":59.353,"text":"這個像尖石鄉有後山的新光國小秀蘭國小石磊國小裕豐國小以及吳豐鄉的桃山國小這些都是我們的偏鄉學校所以我想要請問一下教育部目前有沒有掌握我們這些所在學校目前的狀況"},{"start":60.49,"end":81.064,"text":"根文包括確實我們在這個通報系統都有的以這一次的颱風雖然它算是我們也算是這個災害是相對減到降到最低但是實際受影響的學校大大小小還是有54所學校那估計的金額大概也目前回報的大概也將近1000萬"},{"start":82.672,"end":111.568,"text":"將近一千萬那目前是地方政府來來通報給我們教育部嗎在修繕的部分有沒有需要我們教育部經費上面來支持幫忙的就有一些小當然我們有這一個這一個災害準備金就會可以先撥就說有一些馬上能夠這一個用來支持學校我想我們這個都會跟地方學跟學校保持密切聯繫然後錢有一些嚴重的我們事實上還沒有報我們就錢災害準備金就先"},{"start":112.068,"end":130.474,"text":"我們會先預播 譬如說以去年有一些太難的我們就會去預播500或者1000的是在一個災情的一個嚴重傷害的一個程度那這個目前我們所掌握的大概都是雖然造成了傷害但是基本上都還算是比較輕微的"},{"start":131.314,"end":154.278,"text":"是因為風災災損的災損這我們無法避免但都希望說可以趕快來復原這部分就要拜託教育部來多加的關心跟幫忙那另外有受到影響就是分科測驗就是說延期兩天所以今天跟明天來舉行所以這一次我們今年的考生三萬九千多名將近四萬名所以有些考場他可能也在很短的時間之內要趕快重新來去準備那因為我有看到部長跟總次長"},{"start":158.519,"end":172.155,"text":"是昨天都有親自到考場現場去看我們這個考場受到災害的影響的部分我看應該是不多啦那這個今天已經在考了嘛所以你們昨天去看的時候的狀況是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":173.456,"end":189.011,"text":"跟委員報告確實因為後來颱風有轉向所以整個那個災害確實造成的影響對我們考場來講基本上都是在認為有一些樹枝這一個或者這一個樹葉大概很快都可以清理那包含我們雖然颱風過了"},{"start":191.293,"end":206.008,"text":"但是有曾我剛才跟其他委員報告的有部分的包含昨天像今天還有一些停止上班上課的我會擔心那些比如說以我去看的六規高中那學生基本上都出來了"},{"start":206.528,"end":229.401,"text":"只有一位我們當時昨天下午再去看的時候就變成是他已經在路上也回報他是安全的所以今天可以如期的參加考試所以這裡邊所有的包含學生提早出來他的交通跟住宿所有造成的一些外加的這些的成本大概我們招聯會這個大考中心都會吸收"},{"start":230.181,"end":254.603,"text":"對 這部分就是特別要跟教育部確認的因為雖然風災造成的 受施的這個災害不大但是因為延期 所以像很多像人事的費用啊我看現場很多 除我們大考中心工作人員之外像監考這個人員很多也是我們一線的老師嘛這個當然要謝謝他們幫忙啊但相關的費用 所以這個不是由個別學校來沒有沒有 這不是由大考中心來前面 前面吸收"},{"start":254.923,"end":274.899,"text":"好這個就是要拜託這個教育部那接下來呢也是大家很關心的有品在校園裡面的安全的問題因為教育部你們盤點出來給我們的數字20個縣市裡面有受到影響的高中以下的學校是861所那幼兒園334所以高中以下這個學校來講"},{"start":276.2,"end":302.191,"text":"這個佔了是22%其實超過四分之一幼兒園也佔了5%是有受到就是說他們的食材裡面有用到相關的油品有營運的油品這個部分四分之一我覺得其實數字相當的高啦所以大家當然是很關切教育部做了哪些措施你們說你們透過這個食材登錄的平台去比對然後已經都進行預防性的下架了這部分所謂的快速比對你們是怎麼處理這個過程流程"},{"start":309.189,"end":323.287,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是我們一收到像譬如說7月1號我們一收到我們就用中聯福茂福壽泰山還有用沙拉油這些關鍵字"},{"start":324.548,"end":334.56,"text":"就直接不是只有品牌名称我们连油的名称也直接用关键字来扩大模糊搜集那一搜集出来是1385项还是1385项立即就跟有关线是"},{"start":341.108,"end":362.803,"text":"發送 發送之後他們去查批號查批號 是不是那個衛福部所公布的那一天的那一個郵品的批號 類似這樣我們查證的過程是這樣 那個是第一層有那四家中聯等三家那接著到7月5號 6號開始有下一層的商家 譬如說360家 原來講230 後來360360那個行政院覺得這個還不夠 應該要"},{"start":371.428,"end":384.013,"text":"用到他的产品所以后来有232个产品或是401个产品以及440个产品我们就用那个产品就继续捞就变成了是刚刚讲的这个数字1195项"},{"start":386.092,"end":404.76,"text":"所以這個也是剛好可以跟剛剛徐委員所講的第一次那個165或是後來的228是指那四家油品直接去搜尋那後來是就第二層的產品他可能某個公司譬如說那個"},{"start":407.076,"end":428.573,"text":"有一家咖啡店他去買到了這個油那這個油他去可能做了什麼的那個什麼我們又去擴大去收集大概是這樣子這個部分就是要拜託你們因為現在我們全國也是進行的是預防性下架也就是它產期生產在4到6月的不管你批次了我們預防性就是說我們怕有漏掉"},{"start":429.113,"end":442.681,"text":"怕說還沒有查出來結果之後查出來所以都先下架所以拜託你們務必密切的跟地方政府保持聯繫第二個我們要滾動式的他會服務這裡發布到什麼程度我們都要提前預先的來做那再來除了這個停損以外就後續的大家在討論的是這個接下來的團體訴訟的球場"},{"start":450.866,"end":467.577,"text":"因為學生 孩子因為現在剛好放暑假但是孩子倘若有吃到這樣的午餐他是受害者但這個油品不是孩子或家長去賣的所以目前在團體出送未來要求償的話我們教育部怎麼來協助呢"},{"start":470.093,"end":498.4,"text":"这个跟委员报告关于求偿这个部分因为受害者真的讲如果是受害者的话绝对不是团散业者也不是学校而是学校的员工跟学生教职员工跟学生所以团体诉讼将来我们为请两个优良消保团体进行团体诉讼的时候就会以这些受害的学生跟教职员工为所谓的请求权让有的对象那由消保团体来进行后续的团体诉讼"},{"start":498.92,"end":522.991,"text":"我看到7月9號就是上禮拜四我們有跟消保團體還有衛福部有一起開了一個會所以你們是有特別註記說這個是涵受害者就涵學生跟教職員工那我今天就是特別想要來拜託教育部再去研擬因為2013年當時我們台北有一個舊案富衛鄉混油案當時這個地方政府他是由教育局"},{"start":523.931,"end":531.92,"text":"然後呢連同學校因為他的採購人也是學校嘛學校也是可能是採購方就學校也可能成為訴訟的主體啦來進行團體訴訟是不是也有這一個軌或這一個方式這個請教育部去把這些過去的案例把它找出來因為其實我看是有相關案例的"},{"start":544.113,"end":562.479,"text":"就是說因為你走消保的話你是說這個教職員或學生我們一起來團體訴訟但今天如果訴訟的主體是學校這可能在處理這個程序上面對家長來講其實可能會更方便一些這個請你們去看看過去倘若有案例是怎麼樣在進行的盡量來協助這個權益的這個救濟跟保障"},{"start":566.24,"end":587.793,"text":"好那我還有點時間是我一定要跟這個部長來關切兩個議題我很關心的第一個是上次我們在這裡有諮詢討論過有關於這個委員有提案要把國教來向下延伸也就是五歲兒童要強迫入學幼兒園的這一個提案那因為呢當時我就很擔心說教授未來這會變成是大班要強迫入學嗎"},{"start":588.513,"end":605.487,"text":"那在強迫入學上面學區的分發後續的作業要怎麼樣去做地方政府有沒有這個量能來承接以及我們現在的制度是否來得及修改跟配套所以當時我要求教育部說你們一定務必要去跟地方政府的教育局處來去開會討論了解他們實務上的狀況你們有沒有去了解了"},{"start":610.028,"end":628.21,"text":"確實我們上個禮拜二禮拜三的全國教育局所長會議這個也是一個議題那地方也認為說在此時因為它有強迫性還有連動到我們所有的這個公司又而言包含學校的一個扣車是哪些縣市的教育局有來"},{"start":629.611,"end":645.07,"text":"是全國的嗎還是分區的全國的全國的地方縣市教育局那當然這其中有因為這個基隆市他的處長因為這個額逆的一個事件他請辭所以是派科長來是就說其他的基隆市讓他們表達的意見"},{"start":645.971,"end":666.846,"text":"基本上就是說大家希望能夠平價幼兒園的這樣一個政策應該繼續推因為它涉及到我們如果當國民教育向下延伸它有強迫性那我們學校的一個教育空間師資課程教材都要有另外那會不會也因為這樣衝擊到既有的私立的幼兒園等等的整體"},{"start":668.567,"end":690.134,"text":"這個大家的一個看法還是說我們還是先把這一個現在對年輕人的一個這個支持啊能夠向客戶的延拖寒暑假然後臨時這裡邊把它落實讓包含區域上的一些這個又拖的這一些資源能夠讓他真正能夠到位我想這一個部分我們"},{"start":690.774,"end":717.026,"text":"大概那一天的一個會議的結論所以地方政府對於國教向下延伸五歲強迫入選是還有一些不同的意見的這部分第一個是說你們這個會議記錄可不可以提供給我們委員會來參考那我還是要拜託啦就是說在立法院修法以前請你們一定要跟地方政府多溝通也要去尊重地方的意見那最後一點是因為今天的議程裡面排成"},{"start":718.226,"end":740.071,"text":"也是有關校士會議這個過去的這個教育部的修正案本來是被查我們把它改成審查案今天要來進行這個部分呢其實上次質詢我有提醒過因為我覺得還是要去釐清它在議事上面的程序因為呢根據我們立法院職權行使法第62條因為它是行政命令嘛這個審查後"},{"start":742.871,"end":765.078,"text":"這個我們立法院是只能決議只能通知原定班之機關更正或者廢止也就是說我們只能退回如果要更正也是原定機關今天也就是教育部你們要去更正我們沒有辦法像修法律一樣在這裡直接來去進行內容跟文字上面的修改跟修正"},{"start":765.698,"end":790.132,"text":"所以說今天如果我們對於這一個它是解聘辦法的這個修正案我們今天在審的是修正案如果說委員會把它退回的話那麼接下來這個解聘辦法會使用的是哪一個版本會變成是修正以前的舊制嗎如果我們把你們的解聘辦法的修正版退回以後那接下來"},{"start":791.907,"end":806.936,"text":"這個解併辦法是用哪一個哪一個辦法是請這個這個因為也有老師來問我這個問題我覺得還是要把它釐清提供委員參考因為這個解釋的權責應該不是在教育部但是這個兩個月內我們要更正過廢止"},{"start":808.197,"end":834.547,"text":"那因為這一次的修正僅限於115年1月份的這個修正所以它內容是有限縮的也就是說依照教師法29條裡所授權的這個部分做修正然後之前的校事會議等等這個因為我們之前都有有進行過這個法規命令的一個程序所以那個部分是沒辦法做修正的"},{"start":835.487,"end":841.75,"text":"好 這沒關係 因為我們等一下還會進行討論只是說 我再拜託你們不是解釋單位 但是你們是未來執行單位就現場發生的問題還是我們教育部來解決所以我會比較擔心 我為什麼擔心這一點因為我們現在新制至少有幾個我覺得很重要比如說我們不能 就是我們不接受匿名檢舉有關於這個霸凌案件的然後我們要把它分流 然後要去篩選然後我們要有輔佐人"},{"start":860.737,"end":880.675,"text":"假設現在我好不容易有這個心智當然心智一定要精進我也要求你們要去精進比如說未來要有法律協助啊心理諮商輔導這個專業協助給老師啊等等可是假設你這個心智被退回了要改到舊版馬上要開始來匿名檢舉這個整個倒行逆施我會很擔心所以等一下務必要把它釐清好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:46:00.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:46:02.307000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請教育部鄭英耀部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T13:46:02.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:46:02.588000+08:00","text":"有請鄭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:46:02.588000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:46:18.055333+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:46:18.055333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:46:33.522667+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:46:33.522667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:46:48.990000+08:00","text":"巴威颱風剛剛走，幸好這一次風雨沒有預期中那麼大，但還是有一些地區傳出有災情，我們特別關心學校，例如在新竹山區的尖石、五峰及苗栗的泰安跟南庄都傳出有道路中斷等等的狀況，所以在學校的部分，我看到新竹有五所小學因為受到災情的影響，今天是停課的，像尖石鄉有後山的新光國小、秀巒國小、石磊國小、玉峰國小，以及五峰鄉的桃山國小，這些都是偏鄉學校。","quality":0.276},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:46:48.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:46:53.353000+08:00","text":"所以我想要請問一下教育部，有沒有掌握這些受災學校目前的狀況？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:46:56.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:47:15.064000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個在通報系統都是有的，以這一次的颱風，雖然災害是相對降到最低，但是實際受影響的學校，大大小小還是有54所學校，估計金額以目前回報的來看大概也將近1,000萬。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:47:16.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:47:24.576000+08:00","text":"將近1,000萬，目前是地方政府通報給教育部嘛，在修繕的部分，有沒有需要教育部的經費來支持、幫忙的？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:47:24.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:47:56.711000+08:00","text":"有一些小額的，當然我們有災害準備金就可以先撥，就是有一些馬上能夠用來支持學校的，我想這個部分我們都會跟地方及學校保持密切聯繫；有一些嚴重的還沒有報，我們的災害準備金就先預撥，譬如以去年來說，有一些臺南的，我們就會先預撥500或者1,000，視災情傷害的嚴重程度。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:47:57.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:48:04.314000+08:00","text":"而以目前我們所掌握的，都是雖然有造成傷害，但基本上都還算是比較輕微。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:48:05.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:48:13.996000+08:00","text":"是，因為風災造成的災損，這個我們無法避免，但是我們都希望可以趕快來復原，這部分就要拜託教育部多加關心跟幫忙。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:48:13.996000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:48:14.996000+08:00","text":"是，這是應該的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:48:14.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:48:27.918000+08:00","text":"另外有受到影響的就是分科測驗延期兩天，就是今天跟明天舉行，今年的考生有三萬九千多名、將近四萬名，所以有些考場可能也要在很短的時間之內要趕快重新整備。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:48:27.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:48:46.135000+08:00","text":"因為我有看到部長跟朱次長昨天都有親自到考場現場去看，對於考場受到災害影響的部分，我看應該是不多啦，因為今天已經在考了嘛，那你們昨天去看的狀況是怎麼樣呢？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:48:47.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:49:01.670000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為後來颱風有轉向，所以整個造成的影響及災害，以考場來講，基本上都是有一些樹枝或樹葉等等，大概都可以很快地清理。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:49:02.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:49:31.354000+08:00","text":"雖然颱風過了，但誠如我剛才跟其他委員報告的，包含昨天，以及今天還有一些停止上班上課的，我們很擔心，以我去看的，像是六龜高中，學生基本上都出來了，只有一位，我們昨天下午去看的時候，他已經在路上，也有回報他是安全的，所以今天可以如期地參加考試。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:49:31.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:49:43.381000+08:00","text":"所以包含學生提早出來、他們的交通及住宿等，所有造成的外加成本，招聯會以及大考中心都會吸收。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:49:44.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:50:04.339000+08:00","text":"對，這個部分就是我特別要跟教育部確認的，因為雖然風災對於設施造成的災害不大，但是因為延期，所以很多像人事費用，我看現場很多除了大考中心工作人員之外，像監考人員很多也是一線的老師，這個當然要謝謝他們幫忙，但是相關的費用不是由個別學校來……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:50:04.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:50:04.459000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:50:04.459000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:50:05.459000+08:00","text":"都是由教育部大考中心來支應？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:50:04.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:50:08.583000+08:00","text":"都是由大考中心全面吸收。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:50:08.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:50:10.845000+08:00","text":"好，這個就是要拜託教育部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:50:11.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:50:26.958000+08:00","text":"接下來也是大家很關心的，油品在校園裡面的安全問題，因為教育部盤點出來給我們的數字，20個縣市受到影響的高中以下學校是861所，幼兒園334所。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:50:27.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:50:56.171000+08:00","text":"以高中以下學校來講，他們的食材有用到相關有疑慮的油品占22%，超過四分之一，幼兒園也占了5%，四分之一這個部分我覺得數字相當的高，所以大家當然是很關切教育部做了哪些措施，你們說你們透過食材登錄平臺比對，已經都進行預防性下架，這部分所謂的快速比對，你們是怎麼處理這個過程、流程？","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:50:56.171000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:50:59.680000+08:00","text":"請署長說明平臺的快速比對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:50:59.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:51:03.189000+08:00","text":"請說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2026-07-13T13:51:03.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:51:49.738000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，第一個，譬如說7月1號我們一收到，我們就用中聯、福懋、福壽、泰山還有用沙拉油這些關鍵字，不是只有品牌名稱，我們連油的名稱也直接用關鍵字來擴大模糊蒐集，一蒐集出來是1,385校，就立即跟有關縣市發送，發送之後，他們去查批號是不是衛福部所公布的那一天的那一個油品批號，類似這樣，我們查證的過程是這樣，那是第一層油的部分，中聯等四家。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2026-07-13T13:51:50.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:52:50.744000+08:00","text":"接著到7月5號、6號開始，有下一層的商家，譬如說360家，原來講236家，後來360家，行政院覺得這個還不夠，應該要用它的產品查，所以後來有232個產品或是401個產品，以及440個產品，我們就用這些產品繼續去撈，就變成了剛剛講的這個數字1,195校，所以這個也剛好可以跟許委員剛才所講的，第一次的165或是後來的228，是指那四家油品直接去搜尋，後來是就第二層的產品，可能某個公司，譬如說有一家咖啡店買到了這個油，這個油他可能做了什麼產品，那個產品我們又去擴大蒐集，大概是這樣子。好。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:52:50.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:53:10.718000+08:00","text":"這個部分要拜託你們，因為現在全國也在進行預防性下架，就是產期生產在4到6月的，不管批次了，預防性就是說我們怕有漏掉，怕還沒有查出來，結果之後查出來，所以都先下架，所以拜託你們務必密切地跟地方政府保持聯繫。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:53:10.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:53:15.040000+08:00","text":"第二個，要滾動式的，衛福部發布到什麼程度，你們都要提前預先來做。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2026-07-13T13:53:15.040000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:53:16.040000+08:00","text":"是，一定的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:53:15.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:53:41.557000+08:00","text":"再來，除了停損以外，後續大家在討論的是接下來的團體訴訟求償，因為學生、孩子現在剛好放暑假，孩子倘若有吃到這樣的午餐，他是受害者，但是這個油品不是孩子或家長去賣的，所以目前團體訴訟未來要求償的話，教育部怎麼協助呢？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-13T13:53:44.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:54:11.780000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，關於求償這個部分，真的講如果是受害者的話，絕對不是團膳業者，也不是學校，而是學校的教職員工跟學生，所以將來我們委請兩個優良消保團體進行團體訴訟的時候，就會以這些受害的學生跟教職員工為請求權讓與對象，由消保團體進行後續的團體訴訟。","quality":0.495},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:54:12.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:54:24.405000+08:00","text":"我看到7月9號上禮拜四你們有跟消保團體還有衛福部一起開了一個會，所以你們是有特別註記這個是含受害者，就是含學生跟教職員工。是。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:54:25.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:54:44.598000+08:00","text":"我今天就是特別想要拜託教育部再去研擬，因為2013年當時臺北有一個舊案──富味鄉混油案，當時地方政府是由教育局連同學校，因為他的採購人是學校，學校也可能是採購方，學校也可能成為訴訟主體來進行團體訴訟，是不是也有這個軌或這個方式？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:54:44.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:55:04.555000+08:00","text":"請教育部把這些過去的案例找出來，我看其實是有相關案例的，因為你走消保的話，你說教職員或學生一起來團體訴訟。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:55:04.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:55:16.459000+08:00","text":"但是今天如果訴訟的主體是學校，這可能在處理程序上面，對家長來講，其實可能會更方便一些，這個請你們去看看過去倘若有案例是怎麼進行的，儘量來協助權益的救濟跟保障。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:55:20.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:55:52.341000+08:00","text":"我還有點時間，我一定要跟部長來關切，兩個議題我很關心，第一個，上次我們在這裡有質詢討論過，有關於委員有提案要把國教向下延伸，也就是5歲兒童要強迫入學幼兒園的提案，因為當時我就很擔心假設未來這會變成是大班要強迫入學，在強迫入學上面，學區的分發、後續的作業要怎麼樣做、地方政府有沒有這個量能來承接，以及現在的制度是否來得及修改與配套？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:55:52.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:55:59.467000+08:00","text":"所以當時我要求教育部務必一定要跟地方政府的教育局處開會討論，了解他們實務上的狀況，你們有沒有去了解了？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:56:04.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:56:18.946000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，確實我們上個禮拜二、禮拜三的全國教育局處首長會議，這個也變成一個議題，地方也認為在此時因為它有強迫性，還有連動到所有公私立幼兒園，包含學校課程……","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:56:20.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:56:22.210000+08:00","text":"你們是哪些縣市的教育局有來？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:56:23.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:56:24.512000+08:00","text":"是全國的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:56:24.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:56:24.892000+08:00","text":"還是分區的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:56:25.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:56:38.269000+08:00","text":"全國的，全國22個地方縣市教育局，當然這其中有基隆市的處長因為兒虐事件請辭，所以是派科長來，就是說其他的……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:56:38.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:56:39.070000+08:00","text":"他們表達的意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:56:39.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:57:27.175000+08:00","text":"基本上，大家希望平價幼兒園這樣的政策應該繼續推，因為如果涉及到當國民教育向下延伸，它有強迫性，那學校的教育空間、師資、課程、教材都要有另外的規劃，會不會因為這樣衝擊到既有的私立幼兒園等等的整體，大家的看法還是先把現在對年輕人的支持，像課後的延托寒暑假等措施能夠把它落實，包含區域的一些幼托資源能夠真正到位，這個部分那一天的會議結論大概基本上是這樣。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:57:27.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:57:34.218000+08:00","text":"所以地方政府對於國教向下延伸，5歲強迫入學還有一些不同的意見？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T13:57:34.218000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T13:57:35.218000+08:00","text":"是，就是說大家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:57:34.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:57:39.881000+08:00","text":"這部分第一個，你們的會議紀錄可不可以提供給我們委員會參考？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:57:40.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:57:49.245000+08:00","text":"我還是要拜託，就是在立法院修法以前，請你們一定要跟地方政府多溝通，也要去尊重地方的意見。好，是。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:57:49.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:58:39.058000+08:00","text":"最後一點是因為今天議程裡面的排程也是有關校事會議，過去教育部的修正案本來是備查，我們委員會把它改成審查案，今天要來進行，這個部分其實上次質詢我有提醒過，因為我覺得還是要去釐清它在議事上面的程序，根據立法院職權行使法第六十二條規定，因為它是行政命令，審查後立法院只能議決後，通知原訂頒之機關更正或者廢止，也就是說我們只能退回，如果要更正也是原訂機關，今天就是教育部你們要去更正，我們沒有辦法像修法律一樣，在這裡直接進行內容跟文字上面的修改跟修正。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:58:39.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:58:55.387000+08:00","text":"所以今天對於解聘辦法的修正案，我們今天在審的是修正案，如果委員會把它退回的話，接下來這個解聘辦法會使用哪一個版本？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:58:56.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:59:00.029000+08:00","text":"會變成是修正以前的舊制嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:59:00.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:59:08.369000+08:00","text":"如果我們把你們的解聘辦法修正版退回以後，接下來解聘辦法是用哪一個辦法？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:59:10.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:59:12.431000+08:00","text":"因為也有老師來問我這個問題，我覺得還是要把它釐清。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭處長乃文","start":"2026-07-13T13:59:12.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:59:49.487000+08:00","text":"我們提供委員參考，這個解釋的權責應該不是在教育部，但是兩個月內我們要更正或廢止，因為這一次的修正僅限於115年1月份的修正，所以內容是有限縮的，也就是說依照教師法第二十九條所授權的部分做修正，然後之前的校事會議等等因為我們之前都有踐行過法規命令的程序，所以那個部分是沒辦法做修正的。好。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:59:49.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T13:59:52.268000+08:00","text":"沒關係，因為我們等一下還會進行討論，只是我再拜託，你們不是解釋單位，但是你們是未來執行單位，現場發生的問題還是教育部要來解決，所以我會比較擔心，我為什麼擔心這一點？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T13:59:52.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T14:00:33.154000+08:00","text":"因為現在新制至少有幾個我覺得很重要的點，比如說，有關於霸凌案件的我們不接受匿名檢舉，我們要把他分流、要去篩選，然後我們要有輔佐人，假設現在好不容易有這個新制，當然新制一定要精進，我也要求你們要去精進，比如說未來要有法律協助、心理諮商輔導等專業協助給老師，假設這個新制被退回了，要改到舊版，馬上又開始來匿名檢舉，我會很擔心整個倒行逆施，所以等一下務必要把它釐清，好不好？","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-07-13T14:00:34.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T14:00:34.655000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T14:00:35.155000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T14:00:36.297857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T14:00:36.597857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T14:00:39.169286+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T14:00:39.469286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T14:00:42.326429+08:00","text":"接下來有請洪孟楷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T14:00:42.626429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T14:00:49.769286+08:00","text":"不好意思，先請問一下洪孟楷委員，有要請食安辦主任說明嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T14:00:50.069286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T14:00:54.640714+08:00","text":"沒有的話，因為他還有院會要先行離開。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}