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你也不知道"},{"start":1038,"end":1040,"text":"你們現在是全面推給下面"},{"start":1040,"end":1042,"text":"所以就是"},{"start":1042,"end":1044,"text":"這些基層警察雞婆了"},{"start":1044,"end":1046,"text":"我們案件進來我們會有輪值的大隊"},{"start":1046,"end":1048,"text":"他們案件進來他們"},{"start":1048,"end":1050,"text":"就會啟動他們的調查程序"},{"start":1050,"end":1052,"text":"所以程序上面"},{"start":1052,"end":1054,"text":"就會確定這個影片"},{"start":1054,"end":1056,"text":"他的帳號到底使用人是"},{"start":1056,"end":1058,"text":"真的還假的"},{"start":1058,"end":1060,"text":"如果是假的又要啟動另外的調查機制"},{"start":1060,"end":1062,"text":"這個帳號是不是"},{"start":1062,"end":1064,"text":"真的假的"},{"start":1064,"end":1066,"text":"還要跑到人家家裡去問"},{"start":1066,"end":1068,"text":"所以我們沒有去我們請地方的同仁去"},{"start":1068,"end":1070,"text":"那不是一樣嗎"},{"start":1070,"end":1072,"text":"那不是一樣嗎你刑事局去"},{"start":1072,"end":1074,"text":"跟地方的派出所去"},{"start":1074,"end":1076,"text":"對民眾來講"},{"start":1076,"end":1078,"text":"感受不是一樣嗎你講話真好笑"},{"start":1078,"end":1080,"text":"我知道委員關心的點"},{"start":1080,"end":1082,"text":"但是我們對於這個過程中"},{"start":1082,"end":1084,"text":"我們也請社區的主委"},{"start":1084,"end":1086,"text":"我們也請社區的主委帶我們去"},{"start":1086,"end":1088,"text":"在整個態度上面我們都是"},{"start":1088,"end":1090,"text":"我們沒有任何強制性"},{"start":1090,"end":1092,"text":"我們沒有任何強制性"},{"start":1092,"end":1094,"text":"那也沒有強迫他你這個影片一定要下來"},{"start":1094,"end":1096,"text":"你不是要求人家下架嗎"},{"start":1096,"end":1098,"text":"我們是跟他講說你要不要調整"},{"start":1098,"end":1100,"text":"你只是因為"},{"start":1100,"end":1102,"text":"那你誰要求下架"},{"start":1102,"end":1104,"text":"我們是建議他你要不要調整"},{"start":1104,"end":1106,"text":"或是下架"},{"start":1106,"end":1108,"text":"我們這麼好心"},{"start":1108,"end":1110,"text":"我們當時這個時間到"},{"start":1110,"end":1112,"text":"我們不要浪費太多時間"},{"start":1112,"end":1114,"text":"有多少這種"},{"start":1114,"end":1116,"text":"什麼製作我們各種各樣的"},{"start":1116,"end":1118,"text":"還在這個在招牌上的"},{"start":1118,"end":1120,"text":"在馬路上的"},{"start":1120,"end":1122,"text":"要娃娃的臉"},{"start":1122,"end":1124,"text":"然後讓我穿什麼軍服"},{"start":1124,"end":1126,"text":"這樣"},{"start":1126,"end":1128,"text":"我們要求下架"},{"start":1128,"end":1130,"text":"有嗎沒有人下架"},{"start":1130,"end":1132,"text":"大半年那個時候"},{"start":1132,"end":1134,"text":"大半年團體做什麼都是對的"},{"start":1134,"end":1136,"text":"結果這一般"},{"start":1136,"end":1138,"text":"的老百姓"},{"start":1138,"end":1140,"text":"就說你就趕快做"},{"start":1140,"end":1142,"text":"所以趕快把他下架"},{"start":1142,"end":1144,"text":"你們這樣的執法"},{"start":1144,"end":1146,"text":"我不希望台灣在"},{"start":1146,"end":1148,"text":"落後倒退到變成是一個警察國家"},{"start":1148,"end":1150,"text":"所以執法非常重要"},{"start":1150,"end":1152,"text":"執法我們支持"},{"start":1152,"end":1154,"text":"但是你一定要有法律上的依據"},{"start":1154,"end":1156,"text":"在這次這樣看起來"},{"start":1156,"end":1158,"text":"你們在第一線執法"},{"start":1158,"end":1160,"text":"就是有問題嘛"},{"start":1160,"end":1162,"text":"否則的話你們應該長官都說對"},{"start":1162,"end":1164,"text":"就是我我們全部都是依法來執行"},{"start":1164,"end":1166,"text":"現在你看你們全部都不是我"},{"start":1166,"end":1168,"text":"這也代表說"},{"start":1168,"end":1170,"text":"這樣的執法會引起"},{"start":1170,"end":1172,"text":"人民對司法的"},{"start":1172,"end":1174,"text":"信任好不好"},{"start":1174,"end":1176,"text":"這點非常非常重要"},{"start":1176,"end":1178,"text":"尤其是這種已經是滿滿的政治性的案件"},{"start":1178,"end":1180,"text":"好不好以上"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:37:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:37:51.090909+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:37:51.818182+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:37:57.636364+08:00","text":"我先請內政部部長以及移民署署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-29T10:37:57.636364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:37:58.636364+08:00","text":"請內政部部長以及移民署署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-29T10:37:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:37:58+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林署長宏恩","start":"2026-07-29T10:38:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:38:08+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:38:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:38:55.714286+08:00","text":"部長、署長，昨天在日本熊本發生了7.1級的強震，所以大家非常關心現在還留在熊本的臺灣民眾，但問題是，交通部現在只能夠整理出組團到日本九州的觀光團人數，但是大家都知道，大家去日本旅遊，絕大部分都是自由行，參加團體旅遊的人非常少，所以我想請問一下，到目前為止，內政部移民署有沒有掌握還滯留在熊本的臺灣民眾人數？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林署長宏恩","start":"2026-07-29T10:38:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:38:57.333333+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長宏恩","start":"2026-07-29T10:39:01.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:39:24.800000+08:00","text":"在發生熊本7.1級地震之後，其實我們有請外交部協助國人赴日本相關的部分，此外，我們也立刻在我們的電腦資訊系統裡面去篩濾近一週裡面國人到九州地區的熊本跟福岡……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:39:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:39:27.800000+08:00","text":"不管是旅遊或者是公務……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長宏恩","start":"2026-07-29T10:39:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:39:31.833333+08:00","text":"就是出境前往那個地方的，大概接近兩萬人左右以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:39:35.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:39:39.333333+08:00","text":"你們推估現在大概有兩萬人在熊本跟……","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"林署長宏恩","start":"2026-07-29T10:39:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:39:43.500000+08:00","text":"就是在九州區域……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:39:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:39:47.111111+08:00","text":"就是在災區的附近。是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:39:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:40:03.666667+08:00","text":"因為現在可能還是會有餘震，所以還是要去掌握前往當地的臺灣民眾，不管是基於旅遊、觀光或者是商務行程，更不要說台積電在熊本有設廠，這些資訊希望我們都能夠掌握。是。","quality":0.736},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:40:03.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:40:06+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，署長請回。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:40:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:40:09.750000+08:00","text":"部長請留下來，我請警政署署長。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:40:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:40:10+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:40:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:41:23.500000+08:00","text":"部長、署長，這兩天大家討論的就是有關於韋淳祐小編所製作的「油不得你」影片一案，現在你們已經移送給臺北地檢署偵辦，在你們今天的報告裡面說，他可能涉及的法條包含刑法偽造文書罪、刑法妨害名譽罪、個資法，我也注意到部長在接受媒體訪問時表示這是不能接受的，這不屬於言論自由範圍，這是社會不能接受的，但是臺灣最寶貴的兩個資產，一個是民主，一個是法治，所以我們政府在採取很多動作來執法的時候，必須要有法令依據，同不同意？同意。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:41:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:41:51.714286+08:00","text":"好，想請問一下，警察到韋淳祐家裡，希望他能夠下架影片，當時我們警察在執法的時候，有沒有告知韋淳祐本人或者是應門的人──他的父親，你們是根據什麼法律上門要求下架？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:41:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:05.333333+08:00","text":"因為這個案件是檢舉完之後，我們發覺可能是高度AI深偽的狀況、情形，我們……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:42:06.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:11.714286+08:00","text":"請問一下，當時你們登門的時候已經完成鑑定了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:42:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:17.857143+08:00","text":"我們刑事局已經有做這樣一個判斷……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:42:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:19.750000+08:00","text":"我是問當時有沒有完成鑑定？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:42:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:21.846154+08:00","text":"你們現在連時序都搞不清楚嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:42:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:24.857143+08:00","text":"我請刑事局來說明。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:42:26.222222+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:27.888889+08:00","text":"你先告訴我當時你們有沒有完成鑑定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:42:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:35.714286+08:00","text":"我現在要還原25號當天的情況，其他我待會再問刑事局。是。","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:42:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:42:59.750000+08:00","text":"好，所以當天連署長都不知道有沒有完成鑑定，只是認為這有深偽的可能，然後警察去執法，而警察執法有沒有告知當事人，因為當天當事人不在家，應門的是父親，你們有跟他爸爸說是根據什麼法條，要求或者是希望他把影片下架？","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:43:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:43:03.833333+08:00","text":"是這樣子的，這是一個沒有強制的作為……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:43:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:43:07.857143+08:00","text":"如果有法的話，就可以有強制作為？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:43:07.857143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:43:08.857143+08:00","text":"我們現在就是說深偽……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:43:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:43:11.500000+08:00","text":"所以現在是不是警察上門道德勸說？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:43:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:43:23.333333+08:00","text":"委員，讓我先說明一下，第一個，現在這個案還沒有移送北檢，而是偵查當中，案件還沒有移送，還在偵查，這是第一個。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:43:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:43:53+08:00","text":"第二個，我們發現這個案件是一個AI深偽的狀況，而且現在我們發現很多影片是用仿冒的、偽造的帳號，所以我們要去查證這個帳號有沒有遭到冒用，這是一個先期的查證作為，包括這個影片是不是屬於他來製造的，因為現在看到有很多影片……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:43:56.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:05.800000+08:00","text":"署長，我問你，如果人在家中坐，可能是在看電視或者是正在煮飯，結果警察上門，請問他會不會害怕？","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:07.846154+08:00","text":"他會不會心生恐懼、心想發生什麼事了？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:08+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:09.636364+08:00","text":"我們會告知他來由，並不是……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:11.833333+08:00","text":"不是，你一定要告知他是依什麼法……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:11.833333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:12.833333+08:00","text":"我們有告訴他說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:37.666667+08:00","text":"我想請教一下部長，在7月25號警察上門之前，部長有沒有打電話給警政署署長或者任何一位內政部下屬，表示這個影片應該要做處理？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:39.750000+08:00","text":"你有沒有打過電話？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:40.500000+08:00","text":"完全沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:40.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:41.833333+08:00","text":"你完全沒有打過電話？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:42.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:44:57.714286+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，我是在接近7點左右問署長，因為媒體有出現這個部分，是不是請刑事局或者是警政署要發一個簡單的新聞稿，就只有這件事情。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:44:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:00.666667+08:00","text":"好，所以你不知道當天警察上門的事情？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:00.666667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:02+08:00","text":"我不清楚。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:03.666667+08:00","text":"你完全不知道，好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:04.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:13.666667+08:00","text":"署長，請問一下，你在7月25號警察上門去詢問、要求下架之前知道嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:15.600000+08:00","text":"完全不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:15.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:16.600000+08:00","text":"你也完全不知道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:16.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:17.600000+08:00","text":"完全不知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:19.666667+08:00","text":"好，署長，就你所了解，這件事情到底是誰要求的呢？","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:22+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:27.846154+08:00","text":"我第一時間就去了解，因為部長打電話說：有這樣的情形，你去了解清楚。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:31.818182+08:00","text":"打電話給你說了什麼，這是在事發之後還是事發之前？之後。","quality":0.458},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:31.818182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:32.818182+08:00","text":"要講清楚一點，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:32.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:39.250000+08:00","text":"就是在這個時間點知道有這個狀況，可能要去了解是什麼情形。","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:40.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:45.750000+08:00","text":"你有沒有打電話給臺北市警察局或者是分局長之類的並請他們執法？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:47.500000+08:00","text":"完全沒有、完全沒有。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:47.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:48.500000+08:00","text":"都沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:48.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:49.500000+08:00","text":"完全沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:48.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:51.666667+08:00","text":"據你了解，這個完全是……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:53.333333+08:00","text":"刑事局。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:54.666667+08:00","text":"是刑事局他們……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:56+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:45:59+08:00","text":"是他們主動去查的案件。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:45:59+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:46:00+08:00","text":"是主動查的案件？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:46:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:46:57.333333+08:00","text":"另外，我想請問一下所涉及的相關法條，剛才部長說這個是社會不能接受的，當我們在談有關於人民權益關係的時候，社會觀感是一件事情，但是法是另外一件事情，第一個，如果說偽造文書罪，其實包含沈伯洋委員後來在Treads上面也有發文，也許他對這個事情的這種行為也不以為然，但是他也講了一件事情，其實這個是法律的ABC，也就是說，偽造文書第一個是冒充，第二個是足生損害，而且是要冒充到有誤信的可能，這在法條上都很清楚。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:46:58.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:47:14+08:00","text":"這個影片的第一句就是「我是苯駢芘」，請問一下，以我們的common sense，有沒有任何一位民眾看到影片會誤以為賴清德總統是苯駢芘？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:47:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:47:17.600000+08:00","text":"有沒有可能？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-29T10:47:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:47:29.800000+08:00","text":"委員，這個案件是不是牽涉到深偽影音目前已經在偵查當中，我們不會對這樣的個案再去做怎麼樣……一切照證據。","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:47:30.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:47:37.800000+08:00","text":"關於這是不是深偽，你們自己都說已經有經過鑑定，你剛剛不是說經過鑑定嗎？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:47:38.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:47:40.400000+08:00","text":"那我來請教一下站在後面的局長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:47:40.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:47:42+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:47:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:47:51.600000+08:00","text":"請問你們是什麼時候鑑定出來這是深偽、是用AI合成的聲音？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:47:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:05.777778+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，在整個過程中，我們接到這樣的檢舉，我們就會同步的了解這個帳號的使用人到底是誰，然後也會做相關的鑑定，剛剛委員有垂詢到……","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:05.777778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:06.777778+08:00","text":"什麼時候完成的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:37.600000+08:00","text":"委員有垂詢到我們為什麼去找這個韋姓民眾，那是我們為了要確定這個帳號是不是他使用的，然後我們沒有做任何的強制處分，他後來回電話給我們，在他回電話給我們之後，我們發現這個帳號是他在使用，而且是一個團隊在製作的，那表示當下沒有直接到案的必要，所以我們就說沒關係，我們也有同步在做這是不是深偽的鑑定。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:41.818182+08:00","text":"好，請問你們所謂的深偽鑑定是在什麼時候完成的？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:42.285714+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:43.714286+08:00","text":"是在當天的下午。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:45.333333+08:00","text":"在25號下午？是。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:49.600000+08:00","text":"所以你們先上門、後完成鑑定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:51.250000+08:00","text":"因為我們接到檢舉，我們就要開始去調查。","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:54+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:48:59.500000+08:00","text":"你在沒有完成鑑定之前就先上門，是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:48:59.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:00.500000+08:00","text":"時序是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:09.636364+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟委員說明了，我們就是先了解這個帳號的使用人到底是真的假的，如果他表示這個帳號不是他用的，我們調查的方向又不一樣，但是我們是同步在做鑑定。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:11.714286+08:00","text":"你們同步在做鑑定？是的。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:17.625000+08:00","text":"我要講就是說，一般的老百姓，當你上門的時候，你只是問他：「這個帳號是不是你的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:17.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:17.875000+08:00","text":"」，就這樣而已？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:23.833333+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們當時去找這位韋先生的時候，我們是跟社區管委會主任委員……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:24+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:25.555556+08:00","text":"你有沒有讓他下架嘛？沒有……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:26.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:27.750000+08:00","text":"你們沒有讓他下架？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:31.750000+08:00","text":"我們是請主任委員帶我們去，我們也沒有進到他的家門，韋先生不在……","quality":0.464},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:35.846154+08:00","text":"你現在不要答非所問，你們有沒有讓他下架這個影片？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:36+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:37.750000+08:00","text":"我們是說這個影片因為……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:39+08:00","text":"有沒有嘛？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:44+08:00","text":"我們同仁有建議他是不是要調整或是下架。對嘛！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:44+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:49:46+08:00","text":"我們沒有強制他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:49:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:50:03.500000+08:00","text":"第一個，你說你們問他帳號是不是他的，事實上是要讓他下架，然後你又說是在你們上門之後才完成鑑定，那我想請問一下，你們完成鑑定的時間是幾個小時？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:50:04.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:50:10.444444+08:00","text":"現在鑑定的時間原則上最長是4個小時會完成。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:50:10.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:50:11.777778+08:00","text":"最長4個小時？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:50:12+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:50:13.818182+08:00","text":"但是現在的儀器都會很快。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:50:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:50:14.222222+08:00","text":"會更快？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:50:14.666667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:50:16.181818+08:00","text":"要看影片的長短。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:50:16.727273+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:50:32.666667+08:00","text":"所以我在這邊要講，就是現在有關於是不是深偽的鑑定，我們其實討論了很多深偽的問題，包含在選舉的時候我們都討論有沒有深偽的問題，我們真的是非常重視深偽的問題，尤其是性影像。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:50:32.833333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:51:01.500000+08:00","text":"所以我們在說這種所謂的冒充會不會足以讓人家誤信，在選舉的時候或者是有什麼性影像，那是讓人更不能接受，過去有很多也是政治性的，包含鄭文燦先生有沒有在飯店私會女性，這個影片的鑑定時間超過1個月，那時候全部的人通通在追啊！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:51:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:51:29.600000+08:00","text":"現在你說其實4個小時就可以完成，當時的羅致政委員也是一樣深陷這種事情，有關於他的不雅影片在瘋傳，大家也想知道，當時羅致政委員正在參選，我們也很怕他被栽贓、被誤會，所以大家也都在追，那時候影片的鑑定也是要搞很久，所以你們的影片鑑定時間是有選擇性嗎？","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:51:30+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:51:57.666667+08:00","text":"另外，我要特別講，其實警察是保護老百姓的，我個人很有自信，我從當議員到現在都一直非常支持基層的警察，但是一般老百姓在碰到警察上門或警察傳訊時不會心生畏懼、恐懼，這是不可能的啦！","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:52:05.777778+08:00","text":"現在搞了這麼多法，老實講，我覺得這些法其實都有問題啦！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:06+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:52:09.818182+08:00","text":"今天說什麼構成刑法的妨害名譽罪，老實說，賴總統就去告他嘛！","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:52:13.857143+08:00","text":"賴總統真的認為這樣妨害我的名譽，那就去告他啦！","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:14+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:52:17.500000+08:00","text":"不用讓你們大費周章。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:18.444444+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:52:22.400000+08:00","text":"我們一般老百姓在網路上問：「陳菊走了？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:22.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:52:25.800000+08:00","text":"」還不到4個小時就被傳訊。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:26+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:52:39+08:00","text":"然後在發生超思雞蛋事件時，有民眾買到臭雞蛋然後在網路上說：我買到臭雞蛋了，竟然被漏夜偵訊！","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:52:47+08:00","text":"一般小老百姓看到臭雞蛋就放在網路上，竟然也被漏夜偵訊！","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:52:48.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:53:01.666667+08:00","text":"之前臺大教授蘇宏達基本上應該是質疑故宮博物院的政策，也是一樣被警察局約談，即便是一個臺大教授或一般的民眾。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:53:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:53:31.333333+08:00","text":"我要講的是，我支持警察執法，但是你執法要符合所有的法定程序，這件事情你們上門關心，但是沒有告訴他是違反了什麼法，另外，連傳喚通知書都沒有，一個老爸爸在家裡嚇得要死，不知道發生什麼事情，怕兒子發生什麼事情，擔心他是不是要被抓起來。","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:53:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:03.555556+08:00","text":"所以我們一直在講這些政治性的辦案應該要減少到最低，最低、最低，我們一直在講臺灣民主之可貴是因為我們有法治在後面做支撐，如果沒有法治的話，你們所有的執法會被外界質疑，你們所有執法會被認為違反行政中立，甚至覺得是對特定人士的打壓，我覺得這一點很重要。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:04.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:25.714286+08:00","text":"老實講，我個人對於司法機關、法院跟檢調都有很多的質疑，但是我一直都支持基層警察，可是今天基層警察在你們的這個要求下辦成這樣子，難道不該檢討嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:26.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:36.666667+08:00","text":"我剛才忘了問局長一件事，我現在請問局長，刑事局到他家裡去問他這件事情，你事先知道嗎？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:39.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:43.714286+08:00","text":"同仁後來跟我講是接到檢舉才去的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:45.800000+08:00","text":"你在他上門之前知不知道？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:46.500000+08:00","text":"不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:46.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:47.750000+08:00","text":"你也不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:47.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:48.750000+08:00","text":"不知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:54:53.555556+08:00","text":"好，你們現在全面推給下面的人，所以就是這些基層警察雞婆啦！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:54:54.266667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:09.875000+08:00","text":"不是，案件進來我們有輪值大隊會啟動他們的調查程序，所以在程序上就會確定這個影片帳號的使用人到底是真的還是假的，如果是假的就會啟動另外的調閱機制。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:10+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:15.800000+08:00","text":"這個帳號是真的還是假的，還要跑到人家家裡去問嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:16+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:17.875000+08:00","text":"所以我們沒有親自去，而是請地方的同仁去問。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:18+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:19.666667+08:00","text":"那不是一樣嗎？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:26.923077+08:00","text":"那不是一樣，你們刑事局去跟地方派出所去對民眾來講感受不是一樣嗎？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:27.076923+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:27.846154+08:00","text":"你講的話還真好笑。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:37.636364+08:00","text":"我知道委員關心的點，但是我們在這個過程中，也請社區的主委帶我們去，在整個態度上我們都沒有任何強制性。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:37.636364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:38.636364+08:00","text":"你們很和藹可親？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:38+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:43.764706+08:00","text":"我們沒有任何強制性，也沒有強迫他一定要將這個影片下架。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:44+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:45.800000+08:00","text":"你不是要求人下架嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:46+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:47.846154+08:00","text":"我們是跟他講，你要不要調整一下，因為……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:51.714286+08:00","text":"如果你只是因為……那我問你誰要求下架？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱局長紹洲","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:55.500000+08:00","text":"我們是建議他，你要不要調整或是下架。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:56.333333+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:55:57.666667+08:00","text":"你們有這麼好心噢？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:55:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:56:01.800000+08:00","text":"我們當時……因為時間到了，我不要浪費太多時間。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:56:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:56:18.285714+08:00","text":"當時在大罷免的時候，有多少這種在製作各種各樣的、在招牌上的、在馬路上的宣傳品，用王鴻薇的臉，讓我穿上什麼軍服，又這樣那樣，我們要求下架，但有下架嗎？","quality":0.631},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:56:18.571429+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:56:19.714286+08:00","text":"沒有人下架欸！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:56:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:56:31.750000+08:00","text":"大罷免那個時候，大罷免團體做什麼都是對的，結果一般老百姓這樣，照你剛剛說的，就是請他趕快把它下架？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:56:32+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:56:39.750000+08:00","text":"你們這樣執法，我不希望臺灣再落後、倒退到變成一個警察國家，所以執法非常重要。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:56:40+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:56:49.666667+08:00","text":"執法我們支持，但是你一定要有法律上的依據，但從這次看起來，你們在第一線的執法就是有問題嘛！","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:56:50+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:56:51.846154+08:00","text":"否則你們長官應該都會說「對！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:56:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:57:03.600000+08:00","text":"就是我，我們全部都是依法在執行的」，但現在一看，你們全都說不是我，這也代表這樣的執法會引起人民對司法的不信任，好不好？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-07-29T10:57:04+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-29T10:57:09.600000+08:00","text":"這點非常非常重要，尤其是這種已經是滿滿政治性的案件，好不好？以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-29T10:57:10.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-29T10:57:13.528571+08:00","text":"下一位請黃捷委員發言、質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":485,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時37分）謝謝主席。我先請內政部部長以及移民署署長。"],["主席：請內政部部長以及移民署署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["林署長宏恩：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長、署長，昨天在日本熊本發生了7.1級的強震，所以大家非常關心現在還留在熊本的臺灣民眾，但問題是，交通部現在只能夠整理出組團到日本九州的觀光團人數，但是大家都知道，大家去日本旅遊，絕大部分都是自由行，參加團體旅遊的人非常少，所以我想請問一下，到目前為止，內政部移民署有沒有掌握還滯留在熊本的臺灣民眾人數？"],["林署長宏恩：委員好。在發生熊本7.1級地震之後，其實我們有請外交部協助國人赴日本相關的部分，此外，我們也立刻在我們的電腦資訊系統裡面去篩濾近一週裡面國人到九州地區的熊本跟福岡……"],["王委員鴻薇：不管是旅遊或者是公務……"],["林署長宏恩：就是出境前往那個地方的，大概接近兩萬人左右以上。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們推估現在大概有兩萬人在熊本跟……"],["林署長宏恩：就是在九州區域……"],["王委員鴻薇：就是在災區的附近。"],["林署長宏恩：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為現在可能還是會有餘震，所以還是要去掌握前往當地的臺灣民眾，不管是基於旅遊、觀光或者是商務行程，更不要說台積電在熊本有設廠，這些資訊希望我們都能夠掌握。"],["林署長宏恩：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝，署長請回。部長請留下來，我請警政署署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長、署長，這兩天大家討論的就是有關於韋淳祐小編所製作的「油不得你」影片一案，現在你們已經移送給臺北地檢署偵辦，在你們今天的報告裡面說，他可能涉及的法條包含刑法偽造文書罪、刑法妨害名譽罪、個資法，我也注意到部長在接受媒體訪問時表示這是不能接受的，這不屬於言論自由範圍，這是社會不能接受的，但是臺灣最寶貴的兩個資產，一個是民主，一個是法治，所以我們政府在採取很多動作來執法的時候，必須要有法令依據，同不同意？"],["張署長榮興：同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，想請問一下，警察到韋淳祐家裡，希望他能夠下架影片，當時我們警察在執法的時候，有沒有告知韋淳祐本人或者是應門的人──他的父親，你們是根據什麼法律上門要求下架？"],["張署長榮興：因為這個案件是檢舉完之後，我們發覺可能是高度AI深偽的狀況、情形，我們……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，當時你們登門的時候已經完成鑑定了嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我們刑事局已經有做這樣一個判斷……"],["王委員鴻薇：我是問當時有沒有完成鑑定？你們現在連時序都搞不清楚嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我請刑事局來說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：你先告訴我當時你們有沒有完成鑑定？我現在要還原25號當天的情況，其他我待會再問刑事局。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以當天連署長都不知道有沒有完成鑑定，只是認為這有深偽的可能，然後警察去執法，而警察執法有沒有告知當事人，因為當天當事人不在家，應門的是父親，你們有跟他爸爸說是根據什麼法條，要求或者是希望他把影片下架？"],["張署長榮興：是這樣子的，這是一個沒有強制的作為……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果有法的話，就可以有強制作為？"],["張署長榮興：我們現在就是說深偽……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在是不是警察上門道德勸說？"],["張署長榮興：委員，讓我先說明一下，第一個，現在這個案還沒有移送北檢，而是偵查當中，案件還沒有移送，還在偵查，這是第一個。第二個，我們發現這個案件是一個AI深偽的狀況，而且現在我們發現很多影片是用仿冒的、偽造的帳號，所以我們要去查證這個帳號有沒有遭到冒用，這是一個先期的查證作為，包括這個影片是不是屬於他來製造的，因為現在看到有很多影片……"],["王委員鴻薇：署長，我問你，如果人在家中坐，可能是在看電視或者是正在煮飯，結果警察上門，請問他會不會害怕？他會不會心生恐懼、心想發生什麼事了？"],["張署長榮興：我們會告知他來由，並不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，你一定要告知他是依什麼法……"],["張署長榮興：我們有告訴他說……"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請教一下部長，在7月25號警察上門之前，部長有沒有打電話給警政署署長或者任何一位內政部下屬，表示這個影片應該要做處理？你有沒有打過電話？"],["劉部長世芳：完全沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：你完全沒有打過電話？"],["劉部長世芳：是，跟委員報告，我是在接近7點左右問署長，因為媒體有出現這個部分，是不是請刑事局或者是警政署要發一個簡單的新聞稿，就只有這件事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以你不知道當天警察上門的事情？"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚。"],["王委員鴻薇：你完全不知道，好。署長，請問一下，你在7月25號警察上門去詢問、要求下架之前知道嗎？"],["張署長榮興：完全不知道。"],["王委員鴻薇：你也完全不知道？"],["張署長榮興：完全不知道。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，署長，就你所了解，這件事情到底是誰要求的呢？"],["張署長榮興：我第一時間就去了解，因為部長打電話說：有這樣的情形，你去了解清楚。"],["王委員鴻薇：打電話給你說了什麼，這是在事發之後還是事發之前？"],["張署長榮興：之後。"],["王委員鴻薇：要講清楚一點，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：就是在這個時間點知道有這個狀況，可能要去了解是什麼情形。"],["王委員鴻薇：你有沒有打電話給臺北市警察局或者是分局長之類的並請他們執法？"],["張署長榮興：完全沒有、完全沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：都沒有？"],["張署長榮興：完全沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：據你了解，這個完全是……"],["張署長榮興：刑事局。"],["王委員鴻薇：是刑事局他們……"],["張署長榮興：是他們主動去查的案件。"],["王委員鴻薇：是主動查的案件？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，我想請問一下所涉及的相關法條，剛才部長說這個是社會不能接受的，當我們在談有關於人民權益關係的時候，社會觀感是一件事情，但是法是另外一件事情，第一個，如果說偽造文書罪，其實包含沈伯洋委員後來在Treads上面也有發文，也許他對這個事情的這種行為也不以為然，但是他也講了一件事情，其實這個是法律的ABC，也就是說，偽造文書第一個是冒充，第二個是足生損害，而且是要冒充到有誤信的可能，這在法條上都很清楚。這個影片的第一句就是「我是苯駢芘」，請問一下，以我們的common sense，有沒有任何一位民眾看到影片會誤以為賴清德總統是苯駢芘？有沒有可能？"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個案件是不是牽涉到深偽影音目前已經在偵查當中，我們不會對這樣的個案再去做怎麼樣……一切照證據。"],["王委員鴻薇：關於這是不是深偽，你們自己都說已經有經過鑑定，你剛剛不是說經過鑑定嗎？那我來請教一下站在後面的局長。"],["邱局長紹洲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問你們是什麼時候鑑定出來這是深偽、是用AI合成的聲音？"],["邱局長紹洲：跟委員報告，在整個過程中，我們接到這樣的檢舉，我們就會同步的了解這個帳號的使用人到底是誰，然後也會做相關的鑑定，剛剛委員有垂詢到……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼時候完成的？"],["邱局長紹洲：委員有垂詢到我們為什麼去找這個韋姓民眾，那是我們為了要確定這個帳號是不是他使用的，然後我們沒有做任何的強制處分，他後來回電話給我們，在他回電話給我們之後，我們發現這個帳號是他在使用，而且是一個團隊在製作的，那表示當下沒有直接到案的必要，所以我們就說沒關係，我們也有同步在做這是不是深偽的鑑定。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，請問你們所謂的深偽鑑定是在什麼時候完成的？"],["邱局長紹洲：是在當天的下午。"],["王委員鴻薇：在25號下午？"],["邱局長紹洲：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們先上門、後完成鑑定？"],["邱局長紹洲：因為我們接到檢舉，我們就要開始去調查。"],["王委員鴻薇：你在沒有完成鑑定之前就先上門，是這樣嗎？時序是這樣嗎？"],["邱局長紹洲：我剛剛跟委員說明了，我們就是先了解這個帳號的使用人到底是真的假的，如果他表示這個帳號不是他用的，我們調查的方向又不一樣，但是我們是同步在做鑑定。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們同步在做鑑定？"],["邱局長紹洲：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講就是說，一般的老百姓，當你上門的時候，你只是問他：「這個帳號是不是你的？」，就這樣而已？"],["邱局長紹洲：跟委員報告，我們當時去找這位韋先生的時候，我們是跟社區管委會主任委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：你有沒有讓他下架嘛？"],["邱局長紹洲：沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們沒有讓他下架？"],["邱局長紹洲：我們是請主任委員帶我們去，我們也沒有進到他的家門，韋先生不在……"],["王委員鴻薇：你現在不要答非所問，你們有沒有讓他下架這個影片？"],["邱局長紹洲：我們是說這個影片因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有嘛？"],["邱局長紹洲：我們同仁有建議他是不是要調整或是下架。"],["王委員鴻薇：對嘛！"],["邱局長紹洲：我們沒有強制他。"],["王委員鴻薇：第一個，你說你們問他帳號是不是他的，事實上是要讓他下架，然後你又說是在你們上門之後才完成鑑定，那我想請問一下，你們完成鑑定的時間是幾個小時？"],["邱局長紹洲：現在鑑定的時間原則上最長是4個小時會完成。"],["王委員鴻薇：最長4個小時？"],["邱局長紹洲：但是現在的儀器都會很快。"],["王委員鴻薇：會更快？"],["邱局長紹洲：要看影片的長短。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我在這邊要講，就是現在有關於是不是深偽的鑑定，我們其實討論了很多深偽的問題，包含在選舉的時候我們都討論有沒有深偽的問題，我們真的是非常重視深偽的問題，尤其是性影像。所以我們在說這種所謂的冒充會不會足以讓人家誤信，在選舉的時候或者是有什麼性影像，那是讓人更不能接受，過去有很多也是政治性的，包含鄭文燦先生有沒有在飯店私會女性，這個影片的鑑定時間超過1個月，那時候全部的人通通在追啊！現在你說其實4個小時就可以完成，當時的羅致政委員也是一樣深陷這種事情，有關於他的不雅影片在瘋傳，大家也想知道，當時羅致政委員正在參選，我們也很怕他被栽贓、被誤會，所以大家也都在追，那時候影片的鑑定也是要搞很久，所以你們的影片鑑定時間是有選擇性嗎？","另外，我要特別講，其實警察是保護老百姓的，我個人很有自信，我從當議員到現在都一直非常支持基層的警察，但是一般老百姓在碰到警察上門或警察傳訊時不會心生畏懼、恐懼，這是不可能的啦！現在搞了這麼多法，老實講，我覺得這些法其實都有問題啦！今天說什麼構成刑法的妨害名譽罪，老實說，賴總統就去告他嘛！賴總統真的認為這樣妨害我的名譽，那就去告他啦！不用讓你們大費周章。我們一般老百姓在網路上問：「陳菊走了？」還不到4個小時就被傳訊。然後在發生超思雞蛋事件時，有民眾買到臭雞蛋然後在網路上說：我買到臭雞蛋了，竟然被漏夜偵訊！一般小老百姓看到臭雞蛋就放在網路上，竟然也被漏夜偵訊！之前臺大教授蘇宏達基本上應該是質疑故宮博物院的政策，也是一樣被警察局約談，即便是一個臺大教授或一般的民眾。","我要講的是，我支持警察執法，但是你執法要符合所有的法定程序，這件事情你們上門關心，但是沒有告訴他是違反了什麼法，另外，連傳喚通知書都沒有，一個老爸爸在家裡嚇得要死，不知道發生什麼事情，怕兒子發生什麼事情，擔心他是不是要被抓起來。所以我們一直在講這些政治性的辦案應該要減少到最低，最低、最低，我們一直在講臺灣民主之可貴是因為我們有法治在後面做支撐，如果沒有法治的話，你們所有的執法會被外界質疑，你們所有執法會被認為違反行政中立，甚至覺得是對特定人士的打壓，我覺得這一點很重要。老實講，我個人對於司法機關、法院跟檢調都有很多的質疑，但是我一直都支持基層警察，可是今天基層警察在你們的這個要求下辦成這樣子，難道不該檢討嗎？","我剛才忘了問局長一件事，我現在請問局長，刑事局到他家裡去問他這件事情，你事先知道嗎？"],["邱局長紹洲：同仁後來跟我講是接到檢舉才去的。"],["王委員鴻薇：你在他上門之前知不知道？"],["邱局長紹洲：不知道。"],["王委員鴻薇：你也不知道？"],["邱局長紹洲：不知道。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你們現在全面推給下面的人，所以就是這些基層警察雞婆啦！"],["邱局長紹洲：不是，案件進來我們有輪值大隊會啟動他們的調查程序，所以在程序上就會確定這個影片帳號的使用人到底是真的還是假的，如果是假的就會啟動另外的調閱機制。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個帳號是真的還是假的，還要跑到人家家裡去問嗎？"],["邱局長紹洲：所以我們沒有親自去，而是請地方的同仁去問。"],["王委員鴻薇：那不是一樣嗎？"],["邱局長紹洲：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那不是一樣，你們刑事局去跟地方派出所去對民眾來講感受不是一樣嗎？你講的話還真好笑。"],["邱局長紹洲：我知道委員關心的點，但是我們在這個過程中，也請社區的主委帶我們去，在整個態度上我們都沒有任何強制性。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們很和藹可親？"],["邱局長紹洲：我們沒有任何強制性，也沒有強迫他一定要將這個影片下架。"],["王委員鴻薇：你不是要求人下架嗎？"],["邱局長紹洲：我們是跟他講，你要不要調整一下，因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果你只是因為……那我問你誰要求下架？"],["邱局長紹洲：我們是建議他，你要不要調整或是下架。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們有這麼好心噢？我們當時……因為時間到了，我不要浪費太多時間。當時在大罷免的時候，有多少這種在製作各種各樣的、在招牌上的、在馬路上的宣傳品，用王鴻薇的臉，讓我穿上什麼軍服，又這樣那樣，我們要求下架，但有下架嗎？沒有人下架欸！大罷免那個時候，大罷免團體做什麼都是對的，結果一般老百姓這樣，照你剛剛說的，就是請他趕快把它下架？你們這樣執法，我不希望臺灣再落後、倒退到變成一個警察國家，所以執法非常重要。執法我們支持，但是你一定要有法律上的依據，但從這次看起來，你們在第一線的執法就是有問題嘛！否則你們長官應該都會說「對！就是我，我們全部都是依法在執行的」，但現在一看，你們全都說不是我，這也代表這樣的執法會引起人民對司法的不信任，好不好？這點非常非常重要，尤其是這種已經是滿滿政治性的案件，好不好？以上。"],["主席：下一位請黃捷委員發言、質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-15-20","speakers":["廖先翔","許忠信","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","王美惠","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","黃捷","李坤城","李柏毅","許宇甄","謝龍介","葉元之","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","張智倫","高金素梅","吳宗憲","林德福"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2026-07-29"],"gazette_id":"1156801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員、內政部部長、法務部、警政署、移民署、財團法人海峽交流基金\n會就「國人赴陸失聯情況及政府因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請內政部部長、警\n政署署長就「『萊爾校長』小編遭警突襲查水表事件，檢視警察執法標準與行政中立」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156801_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}